Author Topic: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right  (Read 24752 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #175 on: July 04, 2022, 04:04:34 pm »
Once you go 4K (or above) you never go back.   ^-^
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #176 on: July 04, 2022, 06:21:43 pm »
And the display industry spent countless dollars into the microLED research for at least ten years and they still haven't been able to enter the general consumer market with any meaningful product... All of these were just for the crazy nit numbers, crazy contrast ratios, and crazy high ppi which most of us won't ever care (or get instantly blinded by the brightness)  :-//

No one cares about these screens until you have one. Then you can't use anything else ever again  :-DD

I am rather enjoying being able to watch 4k HDR content on my laptop.
Not with a microLED display you’re not: they haven’t gone into production yet. You’ve got either OLED or mini-LED (the latter being just LCD with very good local dimming). MicroLED is where there’s literally individual RGB LED dice for every single pixel, like a video wall, but tiny.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #177 on: July 04, 2022, 06:26:48 pm »
Yes aware of that. My comment targets the contrast ratios, ppi and nits. Mine's a mini-LED and next to an OLED it's indistinguishable. OLED and microLED have similar characteristics. One actually works though  :-DD
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #178 on: July 04, 2022, 06:34:17 pm »
Biggest issue with miniLED over OLED is blooming on high contrast scenes: a good example is a starry night.

I wouldn't worry about OLED for a computer monitor though.  Too much static content, too high a risk of burn in.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #179 on: July 04, 2022, 06:37:17 pm »
That was an issue for sure with the iPad Pros with mini LED when they first came out. I didn't buy one due to that. The MacBook Pros don't seem to suffer from that to any significant degree however. I was ready to return mine if it was an issue but it wasn't!
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #180 on: July 04, 2022, 11:00:28 pm »
Biggest issue with miniLED over OLED is blooming on high contrast scenes: a good example is a starry night.

I wouldn't worry about OLED for a computer monitor though.  Too much static content, too high a risk of burn in.

CRTs were prone to burn in and they worked fine on computers, that's why screensavers were invented. Yes some screens are going to burn, but they have a finite lifespan, personally I think it's worth it. Turn down the brighness and use a screensaver, that should go a long way toward preventing burn.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #181 on: July 04, 2022, 11:02:46 pm »
Screensavers sort of don’t exist these days because they consume power. The screen just turns off and the CPU goes to sleep  :-//
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #182 on: July 04, 2022, 11:06:27 pm »
Of course they still exist, the fully up to date Mint system I'm typing this on has a whole selection of them available by default although their utility has been limited at best with LCD. Blanking the screen is probably the best screensaver you can use and is one of the many options.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #183 on: July 04, 2022, 11:09:52 pm »
CRTs were prone to burn in and they worked fine on computers, that's why screensavers were invented. Yes some screens are going to burn, but they have a finite lifespan, personally I think it's worth it. Turn down the brighness and use a screensaver, that should go a long way toward preventing burn.

OLEDs burn in much faster than CRTs.  The half life of CRT phosphor might be 20-50k hours, but an OLED is closer to 10k hours (at least for WOLED like LG's panels.) 

This is the same reason plasma TV burn in was always a bit overrated.  Panasonic panels had 50k+ half lives so burn in was much less visible over normal 10yr or so lifespan of the set.  I've got one with 20k hours on it and I can just about see a faint trace of a channel logo when on the solid green test pattern, but that's all.  Meanwhile I see plenty of pics of LG OLEDs with burn in.  (This is just painful to look at: https://imgur.com/a/qYD4QSK)

I'm going to be super careful with our set when we get one as I still can't help but be lured in by the damn infinite contrast!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 11:11:54 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #184 on: July 04, 2022, 11:11:26 pm »
OLEDs burn in much faster than CRTs.  The half life of CRT phosphor might be 20-50k hours, but an OLED is closer to 10k hours (at least for WOLED like LG's panels.) 

This is the same reason plasma TV burn in was always a bit overrated.  Panasonic panels had 50k+ half lives so burn in was much less visible over normal 10yr or so lifespan of the set.  I've got one with 20k hours on it and I can just about see a faint trace of a channel logo but that's all.  Meanwhile I see plenty of pics of LG OLEDs with burn in.

I'm going to be super careful with our set when we get one as I still can't help but be lured in by the damn infinite contrast!

They do, they're more like CRT based projection displays in that sense, but they can still be used for computer monitors, especially if the cost is such that you can just figure on replacing the display every 5 years or so.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #185 on: July 04, 2022, 11:11:38 pm »
Of course they still exist, the fully up to date Mint system I'm typing this on has a whole selection of them available by default although their utility has been limited at best with LCD. Blanking the screen is probably the best screensaver you can use and is one of the many options.

Not configured by default on Mac or windows at least I should say.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #186 on: July 04, 2022, 11:23:47 pm »
Of course they still exist, the fully up to date Mint system I'm typing this on has a whole selection of them available by default although their utility has been limited at best with LCD. Blanking the screen is probably the best screensaver you can use and is one of the many options.

Not configured by default on Mac or windows at least I should say.

It makes sense that they're not configured by default, they're unnecessary for most people, but they exist and are still included by default.

https://www.howtogeek.com/764336/how-to-use-a-screen-saver-in-windows-11/

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-a-screen-saver-mchl4b68853d/mac
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #187 on: July 04, 2022, 11:56:29 pm »
What do you do when the computer is awake and being used? Particularly with large screens, do you remove all shortcut icons from the desktop and have a plain black background? If not, don't those icons burn in (they are static and being displayed all day every day)?
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #188 on: July 05, 2022, 06:40:13 am »
My desktop isn’t littered with trash to burn onto any screens. Learned that one years ago with an FD Trinitron  :-DD.

 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #189 on: July 05, 2022, 09:42:29 am »
Perhaps my M.O. is different thsn others, but I always have icons on the desktop and have done this for decades since the NEC Multisync 3D days and never had a problem of etching icons on the screen. Part of the reason is that I always took good care of my screens, leaving either a screen saver (flying windows or Johnny Castaway fans around?) and turned off screen and cimputer when unused (even the ones at work/labs).
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2022, 05:35:25 pm »
I usually have a handful of windows open when I'm working at a computer so the desktop icons are hidden most of the time. The thing that is most likely to burn these days is probably the task bar, but you could mitigate that by setting it to a softer color. Burn will probably still happen eventually with an OLED display, I just figure it's a component with a finite lifespan, when the burn becomes bad enough to be distracting, replace the display.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2022, 06:34:31 pm »
Quote
I just figure it's a component with a finite lifespan, when the burn becomes bad enough to be distracting, replace the display.

It some ways that's just a sensible business decision, but it's a poke in the eye for still making robust tools that will last a lifetime (or at least a generation of technology progress). Wouldn't be so bad were they not so expensive too: work out the cost per month and suddenly software subscriptions seem generous!

But my personal beef with this kind of thing is that it takes a while to set up and get used to. You have it just so, and then before you know it you have to bin it and start again with something else because, of course, that model (perhaps even size and resolution) aren't made any more.

Over time, things get less personal and you get less enjoyment out of the because of that. I can happily drive any random car and maybe even be more or less comfortable in it, but I won't enjoy it like I enjoy driving my car. In my car I can tell if the chair is moved even slightly, or the mirror knocked a bit off perhaps. But normally I just don't think about it and enjoy the drive without a thought as to the mechanics of doing it. In another car, the car will always be intruding.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2022, 06:49:47 pm »
I don't know. I think the progress is mostly positive. Also tools rarely last a lifetime if you use them lots. My grandfather was a fine example. Lots of lifetime lasting tools that were never used  :-DD

The last gen Apple Thunderbolt display which was top notch at the time. Released in 2011. I know people who are still using them 10 years later which is a pretty good lifespan. You can get a massive refinement of one with the Studio Display for about the same price including inflation. I'll be happy with mine if it lasts 5 years. 10 would be amazing.

Whereas my 27" Iiyama that cost 1/4 of the price didn't last 2 years. Grrrrr.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #193 on: July 05, 2022, 10:30:18 pm »
Quote
Whereas my 27" Iiyama that cost 1/4 of the price didn't last 2 years.

Hmm. My Iiyama ProLite is getting close to that. It'd better last a lot longer!
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #194 on: July 05, 2022, 10:35:54 pm »
Quote
Whereas my 27" Iiyama that cost 1/4 of the price didn't last 2 years.

Hmm. My Iiyama ProLite is getting close to that. It'd better last a lot longer!

I've got a dumpster-dived Iiyama 24" FHD monitor for my Raspberry Pi and other projects.  It had bad solder joints on the IEC mains connector preventing it from powering up, which was why it was in the dumpster I guess.  It's been working for almost 10 years since. 

Build quality was quite average, lots of metalwork for EMC and a decent quality AUO panel, but a control board and power supply full of inexpensive electrolytics (I seem to recall I 'recapped' the whole PSU after doing the joints, thinking I'd own it for some time). Tiny 0.5W integrated speakers -- you wonder why they bothered! 
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #195 on: July 05, 2022, 11:17:57 pm »
Used to be a good brand. Still got my last CRT which is Iiyama, although it's not been used for loong while now.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #196 on: July 06, 2022, 06:53:47 am »
I’ve got another Iiyama in the cupboard which is my emergency PC debugging monitor. That’s a 24” VA panel and seems ok still. It’s about 3 years old now. I can’t use it as a desktop monitor any more. It’s horrible  :-DD
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #197 on: July 06, 2022, 07:18:55 pm »
I still have a 23" Samsung that I use on a regular basis. It's from 2009. Still works as good as new. Not a single dead pixel, no issue with the backlight. Nothing.

I once had a IIyama CRT, which was good but only lasted like 2 years.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #198 on: July 06, 2022, 09:28:39 pm »
Quote
but only lasted like 2 years

Why didn't anyone tell me this before I bought mine? Seems you all knew!
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #199 on: July 08, 2022, 01:14:12 pm »
This is Ektachrome, it's a slide film. You should probably look at an Ektar 100 datasheet to make a fair comparison. Slide film is known to be quite finicky regarding exposure, because the usable range is quite small compared to negative film. Also, the density range is not that important, you can influence that with the developer used, time and temperature anyway, the usable exposure range is what defines dynamic range.

I picked Ektachrome precisely because there's no wiggle room, it always goes through E6 chemistry (unless you're one of the weirdos putting it through C-41 to get funky 'art' rather than accurate reproduction.). Otherwise some bright spark was going to argue about the minutiae of the chemistry used rather than the broad principle. The widest dynamic range you'll get out of any silver emulsion is somewhere between 1000:1 and 10000:1, limited by a Dmax on the close order of 4.0 for continuous tone images (i.e. no fair citing lith film used in strictly black or white processes where Dmax is limited by how much silver you can afford).

Yes, but, again, Dmax is not really an important figure when it comes to dynamic range. It's conveniently crafted to match the output medium. Negative film has a wide exposure latitude, but conveniently it is less dense than e.g. slide film. It maps a wide input range to a smaller output range and that's just a better match for photographic paper. So, even if the density ratio is just 1000:1, you can still have 14 stops of dynamic range, and that's quite good even by todays "digital" standards.
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