Author Topic: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right  (Read 18859 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2022, 05:29:32 pm »
Well that's where windows and macOS diverge. Looking at a 27" display you need UI furniture and text to be roughly the right size based on the display size. The problems are this:

4k native -> everything too small
4k 2x scaling -> everything too big
4x 1.5x scaling -> everything right size but too blurry
5k 2x scaling -> just right

I wouldn't say it's 3x what your eyes can pick out. It's very very obvious the difference if you sit in front of a 5k display versus a 4k display for all of the above cases.

Chuck in decent dynamic range, colour calibration and there's a winning combination. Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2022, 05:38:48 pm »
Oh you are talking about the windows scaling. Well yes and no. This page is scaled by and amount by the OS but also it could be by the browser. apart from after changing the scale I have not seen issues really with using 150%, 175%, 200% or 225%, I choose the one that makes sense for my eyes in terms of haw big things are, it's never an issue. Yes the more pixels you have the more play there is but really what you are asking for is not 5k resolution because it's 5k but because the numbers make sense. I don't know how the OS generates things but I have had no issues with any magnification setting on my 4k. Yes other factors matter, I would always take a lower resolution better quality panel over a high resolution low quality. Both my monitors are IPS, I paid more for them than non IPS and made sure they were matt not gloss finish. The result is that they are like looking at printed paper.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2022, 05:43:55 pm »
The whole point is there being pixels so small you can’t see the discrete steps in curves of text etc. that’s a different problem to not being able to see discrete pixels.

The resolving power of the eye is usually given as 1/60 of a degree for a person with 6/6 (20/20 in bushels per fortnight land) vision. That's the ability to just see two black lines, set 1/60 of a degree apart, with white in between them, rather than perceive a single grey line. To model this as pixels, the pixels would need to subtend 1/120 of a degree (to get black/white/black with the black 1/60º apart), which at 1m would make a pixel 145 um wide, or 72.7 um at 0.5 m (or 349 pixels/inch at 0.5m).

However, we can distinguish discontinuities at a finer level. So draw a line, cut through it and offset one half from the other and we can spot that at even smaller scale. (Haven't got hard figures to hand)

Vision is complicated, and pixels/inch numbers is too simplistic to describe what can and can't be seen. Other things come into the equation, contrast, illumination level and so on. But if you have to decide on a pixel size that's close to the limits of human vision then 1/120 of a degree subtended angle would be the number to pick.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2022, 05:45:45 pm »
Oh you are talking about the windows scaling. Well yes and no. This page is scaled by and amount by the OS but also it could be by the browser. apart from after changing the scale I have not seen issues really with using 150%, 175%, 200% or 225%, I choose the one that makes sense for my eyes in terms of haw big things are, it's never an issue. Yes the more pixels you have the more play there is but really what you are asking for is not 5k resolution because it's 5k but because the numbers make sense. I don't know how the OS generates things but I have had no issues with any magnification setting on my 4k. Yes other factors matter, I would always take a lower resolution better quality panel over a high resolution low quality. Both my monitors are IPS, I paid more for them than non IPS and made sure they were matt not gloss finish. The result is that they are like looking at printed paper.

Yeah those seem really good until you sit in front of something better. It’s nearly impossible to go down a monitor grade again. I actually prefer gloss finish myself. Better colour contrast. But you need something that can pump out a lot of brightness if you have a gloss screen. I went from 27” 4k IPS 250 nits to 27” 5K 600 nits P3 and it’s crazy different.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2022, 05:48:21 pm »
Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.

No, LG do too, and of course until Apple introduced their own it was the LG UltraFine Display that Apple themselves sold to fill the gap.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2022, 05:50:39 pm »
Basically I bought my 4k monitors and found peace :) I can't see the pixels, even looking very closely I can't, I can sort of perceive that I am on the cusp of seeing that they must be there as the curve is not sharp when I put my eye up to the screen (100mm) but for all intents and purposes at 4k my eyes and brain are quite happy. All we are going to do is waste resources in making new monitors no one needs and spending more power on processing detail we cannot appreciate. As for video, the only time I can just see a difference if I compare is one of daves videos at 4k and FHD, I just can't bare to waste the bandwidth on 4k, the difference is so subtle that you only see it on comparison and you can only see it at all on my 43" monitor on a video like daves because it is well lit and most of the frame is still. 4k for movies is only necessary in certain circumstances.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2022, 05:52:46 pm »
Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.

No, LG do too, and of course until Apple introduced their own it was the LG UltraFine Display that Apple themselves sold to fill the gap.

Let’s not even talk about that steamer. Horribly unreliable and poorly made bit of kit with serious quality control issues. 

The main point is that the PC market is constrained mostly to 4k because, well it’s cheap and the PC market is people buying to a price not a specification. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 05:54:19 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2022, 05:54:35 pm »
Yeah those seem really good until you sit in front of something better. It’s nearly impossible to go down a monitor grade again.

Yeah, that backwards step is something that once you've "been there" you don't want to take.

I've had a 5k 27" screen (one of the LG ones) for a couple years now, and whenever I sit down in front of anything else now I find myself going "Yuck, this is fuzzy. Why can I see all the pixels?".
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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2022, 05:55:24 pm »
That’s a long time. The ones we had in the office all blew up in under 18 months or had ghosting and connection issues.

Edit: this was a stupid thing because they put monitor arms in everywhere and they didn’t realise you could get VESA mount iMacs so they bought the UltraFine displays and i7 mac minis instead  :palm: :palm:. They were rolling out 24” M1 iMacs recently instead  :-// (despite everyone working at home and being stuck on shit dells). Crack smokers.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 05:59:00 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2022, 05:58:31 pm »
Let’s not even talk about that steamer. Horribly unreliable and poorly made bit of kit with serious quality control issues. 

Mine has been faultless, no issues whatsoever. I even have the MacBook powered from the hub on it (and quite a few moderately power hungry ancillaries like a thunderbolt 10 Gb/s network adapter). Maybe I was just lucky.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2022, 05:59:30 pm »
May the gods of luck be on your side. Failing that the gods of chargeback  :-DD
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2022, 08:16:54 pm »
Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.

No, LG do too, and of course until Apple introduced their own it was the LG UltraFine Display that Apple themselves sold to fill the gap.

Let’s not even talk about that steamer. Horribly unreliable and poorly made bit of kit with serious quality control issues. 

The main point is that the PC market is constrained mostly to 4k because, well it’s cheap and the PC market is people buying to a price not a specification. 

not everybody buying a PC which by the way is what macs also are are buying to a price. I always look at specification first, then find a decent compromise but I will pay more for better kit that will last before an upgrade rather than sell myself short.
 

Offline bw2341

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2022, 09:30:49 pm »
Well that's where windows and macOS diverge. Looking at a 27" display you need UI furniture and text to be roughly the right size based on the display size. The problems are this:

4k native -> everything too small
4k 2x scaling -> everything too big
4x 1.5x scaling -> everything right size but too blurry
5k 2x scaling -> just right

I wouldn't say it's 3x what your eyes can pick out. It's very very obvious the difference if you sit in front of a 5k display versus a 4k display for all of the above cases.

Chuck in decent dynamic range, colour calibration and there's a winning combination. Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.

Okay, I think I know what you are going on about.

As far as I know, Mac and Windows uses different compromises for non-integer scaling. I only use Windows and text is sharp down to the individual pixel on my 4k display using 1.25x scaling. The problem is that some older programs render incorrectly. They either do not scale at all leaving the text too small to see or they use an ugly uneven-looking non-integer scaling of bitmap images.

From what I've read on the Mac, people are reporting very different results with 4k displays. Some people have sharp text while others have unacceptably blurry text. It might even depend on the particular display and how Apple interprets the EDID.

As far as I know, the ideal behaviour on a Mac for 1.5x scaling to 27 inch 4k is to render at 3x 2560x1440 and then scale 0.5x with anti-aliasing to 4k. There should be no rendering defects, but it seems to me that the text would be blurrier than on Windows.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 09:43:33 pm by bw2341 »
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2022, 09:34:10 pm »
You could always try netbeans on a 4k display if you want to know what blurry text actually looks like, I'm buggered if I can figure out how they could get it that wrong.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #164 on: June 26, 2022, 09:39:21 pm »
That's probably windows vs JVM more than anything. The whole of windows high DPI is crazy fucked up. I've got a Dell here which is a 3840x2400 on a 15" screen and everything renders fine apart from SQL server management studio. The task bar icon for it is 1:1 pixel ratio so about 3mm across  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:. If you open it, it opens at 1:1 pixel ratio as well. No attempt at DPI scaling.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2022, 09:40:58 pm »
Well that's where windows and macOS diverge. Looking at a 27" display you need UI furniture and text to be roughly the right size based on the display size. The problems are this:

4k native -> everything too small
4k 2x scaling -> everything too big
4x 1.5x scaling -> everything right size but too blurry
5k 2x scaling -> just right

I wouldn't say it's 3x what your eyes can pick out. It's very very obvious the difference if you sit in front of a 5k display versus a 4k display for all of the above cases.

Chuck in decent dynamic range, colour calibration and there's a winning combination. Apple are the only supplier shipping 5k 27" which is super super popular with anyone doing graphical work (and programming now) because it's the sweet spot.

Okay, I think I know what you are going on about.

As far as I know, Mac and Windows uses different compromises for non-integer scaling. I only use Windows and text is sharp down to the individual pixel on my 4K display using 1.25x scaling. The problem is that some older programs render incorrectly. They either do not scale at all leaving the text too small to see or they use an ugly uneven-looking non-integer scaling of bitmap images.

From what I've read on the Mac, people are reporting very different results with 4K displays. Some people have sharp text while others have unacceptably blurry text. It might even depend on the particular display and how Apple interprets the EDID.

As far as I know, the ideal behaviour on a Mac for 1.5 scaling to 27 inch 4K is to render at 3x 2560x1440 and then scale 0.5x with anti-aliasing to 4K. There should be no rendering defects, but it seems to me that the text would be blurrier than on Windows.

My 4K 27" was one of the less blurry ones and I think it scaled it as you suggested.

The worst thing of all, which was complete cancer was Linux. That just shit itself every 5 seconds.

After being pissed off with this for far too long I just bought something that worked properly and have zero regrets.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #166 on: June 26, 2022, 09:51:36 pm »
I have my 4K monitor set at 125% scaling which seems ideal.

Scaling, on Windows at least, doesn't affect pixel-precision graphics like Windows GDI elements or CSS borders at 1px or similar.  It only really alters the size of GUI elements and the font size.

Since all good fonts have a proper hinting setup, you shouldn't notice arbitrary scaling unless you're using crap fonts.  It's pretty smooth and continuous on Windows, even though it has a fairly pedestrian font engine.

I think OS X will use FreeType (and/or Core Text for Apple-specific apps) which is very good indeed - supporting all sorts of new advanced hinting algorithms including ones that run as mini-programs inside the font.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 09:55:03 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #167 on: June 26, 2022, 10:26:30 pm »
I had a 4K monitor scaled to 125%. Or 150%. Neither were particularly good, and those apps aware of high DPI just made their windows and text bigger. What the hell is the point of paying for 4K pixels when everything scales them to an effective 2K?

So I dumped it and got a 43" 4K instead, and run eveything with no scaling at all. Result: huge amount of work space with readable text and great graphics. Which is what I bought the thing for in the first place.

Honest, having high DPI and then having to scale is like getting Bugatti Veyron and then shoving in a low-ratio gearbox.
 

Offline TomKatt

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #168 on: June 27, 2022, 03:01:00 pm »
Ironically, the more technology advances in the ability to present ever higher "resolution", the more consumers appear to value convenience over functionality...

You have to go out of your way to purchase any kind of real "hi-res" audio these days...  Streaming has made lossy compression the norm.

Likewise, there is barely any volume of 4K visual media available, let alone 8K and higher.   Not to mention phone sized gadgets are probably the predominant viewing devices.

It's kind of depressing.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #169 on: June 27, 2022, 05:57:47 pm »
To be fair the phone as a bigger screen than my TV at the viewing distance. Also it’s OLED HDR unlike the TV.

As for convenience over functionality, I’d rather have less functions that actually work properly.

We live in a glorious world of cool stuff. It’s not depressing :)
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #170 on: June 27, 2022, 06:33:28 pm »
To be fair the phone as a bigger screen than my TV at the viewing distance. Also it’s OLED HDR unlike the TV.

As for convenience over functionality, I’d rather have less functions that actually work properly.

We live in a glorious world of cool stuff. It’s not depressing :)

Yeah, I agree. Uh, about the cool stuff, I mean. The world of cool stuff is cool, but the world in general *is* depressing about all kinds of things.

In this thread, I again find it "interesting" that the main example of questionable technology uses would be higher-DPI displays, which if anything, are just technically better, cool and mostly harmless, while some *really* currently questionable uses of technology have been ignored, and in threads where they are discussed, people find all kind of convoluted reasoning for defending them, yet they are quick at dismissing the harmless and just fun stuff. I guess ways of enslaving people or making the world blow up are more fun than sharp images on pretty displays. Or something. ;D
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2022, 06:43:44 pm »
Ironically, the more technology advances in the ability to present ever higher "resolution", the more consumers appear to value convenience over functionality...

You have to go out of your way to purchase any kind of real "hi-res" audio these days...  Streaming has made lossy compression the norm.

Likewise, there is barely any volume of 4K visual media available, let alone 8K and higher.   Not to mention phone sized gadgets are probably the predominant viewing devices.

It's kind of depressing.

plenty of audiophools, my sisters father in law was telling me the other weekend how he can hear the jitter in a 10MHz clock..... I don't even know what this clock is for and neither does he I bet.
 

Offline Oblivion1407

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #172 on: July 04, 2022, 02:51:18 pm »
And the display industry spent countless dollars into the microLED research for at least ten years and they still haven't been able to enter the general consumer market with any meaningful product... All of these were just for the crazy nit numbers, crazy contrast ratios, and crazy high ppi which most of us won't ever care (or get instantly blinded by the brightness)  :-//
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #173 on: July 04, 2022, 03:38:12 pm »
And I surely hope they keep investing in it until we’re there. Direct-view LED looks spectacular, so if we can get it down to desktop size affordable it’ll be amazing. “Crazy” brightness has very real applications (daylight-visible displays), and “crazy” contrast ratios bring with them very real image quality improvements, at least when they’re true contrast and not nonsense “dynamic” contrast — and LED can deliver real contrast. It’s all about the black and white points.

Remember also that direct-view LED has the potential to be more energy efficient than other displays. LEDs are more efficient at low currents, so running them at comfortable indoor viewing levels should be quite efficient.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Just because technology can do something, doent meant its always right
« Reply #174 on: July 04, 2022, 03:49:14 pm »
And the display industry spent countless dollars into the microLED research for at least ten years and they still haven't been able to enter the general consumer market with any meaningful product... All of these were just for the crazy nit numbers, crazy contrast ratios, and crazy high ppi which most of us won't ever care (or get instantly blinded by the brightness)  :-//

No one cares about these screens until you have one. Then you can't use anything else ever again  :-DD

I am rather enjoying being able to watch 4k HDR content on my laptop.
 


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