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Kiss Analog butthurt over Dave getting free stuff
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CatalinaWOW:
Another reason that the big corporations stick with the big name suppliers is that they don't pay list price.  I got a brief insight into this one year when I found that my company got a major (more than 25%) kickback of total annual purchases as long as those purchases exceeded some 7 or 8 digit number.  I have no idea if or how that kickback was allocated among the business units, or how the many tax implications were handled.  Perhaps something in those unknowns made it still more attractive.

I know that the price differential between the good, but second tier folks is larger than the number mentioned, but it adds to the other factors mentioned previously.
mendip_discovery:
I know from experience that if you spend lots the sales team can offer you better discounts. Customers willing to spend are good for sales.

On the comment about calibration, labs often can only test the elements that make the kit work. But testing the functions as a whole is a bit of a pain unless you have a known working example of what it needs to be tested on and a known failed example. This is not helped by manufacturers that keep things hidden or no manual mode so the manufacturer is where you have to go to get it calibrated fully, or even adjusted.
HalFET:

--- Quote from: Someone on December 01, 2023, 01:19:00 am ---Thats jumping to an extreme, all the compliance and product safety work should/needs to be done with calibrated equipment. That work can even be the majority use (in hours of operation) of test equipment with things left on in production and continually used. But as the example above, there are day to day uses in R&D (as separate from manufacturing or compliance/safety) which have no need for any calibration or traceability, just some guidance/informational.

The thread has also discussed how calibration does not mean every measurement is covered, there is significant judgement/consideration required by the person using the equipment to be sure that the calibration covers their particular use. Calibration is needed in context, not just a blanket (and blind) "must calibrate all instruments that can be calibrated".... which you can have done for almost any meter/instrument even the low rent brands such. I've seen measurement tools calibrated for a single parameter within a narrow range, because that was all that was required, rather than the expense of a comprehensive calibration.

--- End quote ---
And where do you draw the line on product safety? Where does the accredited body draw the line? Where does the legal system draw the line? It's easy to make such statements online, but the reality is that in practice it can get very blurry. And that's without considering the cost of having to do product recalls, secondary inspections after you failed an inspection round, or the cost of having a single injured person. So no, it's really just easier and cheaper to keep everything calibrated as a large company, then there's never any discussion. And as many folks above suggested, as a large corporation you get "fleet contracts" and you ain't paying the sticker price. So yes, it's actually really just easier and cheaper to go with this approach once you get past a certain size.
Someone:

--- Quote from: HalFET on December 01, 2023, 11:20:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on December 01, 2023, 01:19:00 am ---Thats jumping to an extreme, all the compliance and product safety work should/needs to be done with calibrated equipment. That work can even be the majority use (in hours of operation) of test equipment with things left on in production and continually used. But as the example above, there are day to day uses in R&D (as separate from manufacturing or compliance/safety) which have no need for any calibration or traceability, just some guidance/informational.

The thread has also discussed how calibration does not mean every measurement is covered, there is significant judgement/consideration required by the person using the equipment to be sure that the calibration covers their particular use. Calibration is needed in context, not just a blanket (and blind) "must calibrate all instruments that can be calibrated".... which you can have done for almost any meter/instrument even the low rent brands such. I've seen measurement tools calibrated for a single parameter within a narrow range, because that was all that was required, rather than the expense of a comprehensive calibration.

--- End quote ---
And where do you draw the line on product safety? Where does the accredited body draw the line? Where does the legal system draw the line? It's easy to make such statements online, but the reality is that in practice it can get very blurry. And that's without considering the cost of having to do product recalls, secondary inspections after you failed an inspection round, or the cost of having a single injured person. So no, it's really just easier and cheaper to keep everything calibrated as a large company, then there's never any discussion.
--- End quote ---
Where have I said to use uncalibrated equipment for compliance/documentation? There are many tasks within R&D (and even in manufacturing) where there is no impact on safety or compliance, indication only. There should be no blurry for the experienced/qualified people doing such work, they should be educated well enough to be able to confidently identify what needs calibrated devices, and what the calibrations should be (not just a sticker on the front).

Gong hard on calibrating everything just in case is one way to go, it's not the best/only way to go in every situation. You're imagining some world where policy eliminates thought, which I will suggest is likely more dangerous (through people not thinking through what calibration means and applies to) than putting decision making with trustworthy people.
HalFET:

--- Quote from: Someone on December 02, 2023, 03:14:17 am ---Where have I said to use uncalibrated equipment for compliance/documentation? There are many tasks within R&D (and even in manufacturing) where there is no impact on safety or compliance, indication only. There should be no blurry for the experienced/qualified people doing such work, they should be educated well enough to be able to confidently identify what needs calibrated devices, and what the calibrations should be (not just a sticker on the front).

Gong hard on calibrating everything just in case is one way to go, it's not the best/only way to go in every situation. You're imagining some world where policy eliminates thought, which I will suggest is likely more dangerous (through people not thinking through what calibration means and applies to) than putting decision making with trustworthy people.

--- End quote ---

Ok, you do a quick measurement, now you write an e-mail with the results, a colleague quickly copies something from it for some design documentation, congratulations you just have data from an uncalibrated instrument in your design documentation. So yes, it really can get quite fuzzy because people are imperfect and make small mistakes. So it's a black and white issue from a quality manager's point of view, uncalibrated instruments have no place on the work floor. And I can perfectly understand why they're doing it, the laissez-faire approach to handling instrument tracking and calibration has filled up a few graveyards over the years. This is literally the point behind quality systems, it prevents small fuck ups from becoming big fuck ups with mindless procedures to catch mistakes that'd get glanced over otherwise. And yes, it's annoying sometimes, it can be dreadful to deal with, but if you're going to do something like stick an electric heater in a plastic enclosure you damn well want those sort of processes to be in place.

And as to, "it's fine in R&D", it really isn't. I work in R&D, if something weird happens in the field it's not uncommon for us to go on location to figure out what went wrong. Having to second guess your equipment there just ain't worth the potential cost savings.
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