Kiss Analog butthurt over Dave getting free stuff

[Kanbus]

Here is the video where Eddie rants about Dave's video where he claiming Tek scopes is worth the price:

In the video Eddie also talks about the other major test equipment manufactures and why their prices are "pure bullshit", don't reflect their real value and should come down in price.

In the video he claim he doesn't "owe" anything to the company's that send him free stuff, but insinuate that Dave does because he gets stuff that cost more than the stuff he get's.

Some points from the video:
 He doesn't want to pay Tek prices because they develop and implement educational stuff in their scopes, and as an educator he doesn't want students to
 learn from these tools, but use "real equipment" in stead.

 He had engineers with masters degrees from other countries, working for free at the company he worked for, and taught them to make PSU's for fighter
 jets. They was not as good as him and he got promoted to engineer before he finished school. Quote: "I know what Im talking about"

 This I don't understand at all: He says they (Tek scopes I assume) doesn't have industrial grade components inside, but commercial grade. But then he
 say's some might have, but he haven't seen it.

 Tek scopes - I assume again since he never really specifies - is not made in USA, only some of it.

 When he buys test equipment he doesn't care about supply chains and doesn't look up how they source components. It is only fx. when stuff goes into an
 aircraft it might come into play.
 He doesn't care about the life span of the equipment either. If the manufacture no longer offers the product, he'll just buy something better ten years later.

 He says people doesn't know what they talk about. Then he holds up a fluke and calls it the worst multimeter, and people are stupid blowing their money
 on it.


This is in the first 22 minutes of the video. It's an hour long, and i can't write it all up, but it continues in the same manner.



I have seen lots of he's reviews of cheap Chinese test equipment. he's especially fond of Kaiweets. This one for example is a review of pen type multimeter: and
From my watching he seems to seldom go over much more than the claimed specs and test some Ohms and voltages. No real use cases.
On this one the only real criticism is that the board is visible through battery compartment and the display is not the best.
He measures a 10 Ohm resistor, gets a wrong reading in the slowest continuity mode I've seen in a long time. he's only comment is "that's interesting".
You can of course buy it of the affiliate link he has.

My thought's on it all is that he doesn't really present the facts, but only talks from own experience. When he reviews products he "forgets" the negatives.

The man is fortunate enough to live in a first world country, and it sounds like he doesn't appreciate that the top tier test and measurement equipment manufactures is from the country he lives in, creates well paying jobs and THEIR technology trickles down for hes favourite Chinese company to copy.

I don't work in the T&M industry, and don't have first hand experience, but for me it sounds like he's the one bullshitting.

I don't hate Chinese T&M equipment. I both have and had some. The stuff i have I consider to be fine and it fills my needs, the stuff I had was either so bad it broke or i just got rid of it.

What's your thoughts?

[Dave]

Scopes are expensive because development costs are enormous and the quantities are relatively small. And apparently, engineers are still going to buy them even at $20k a pop.
One doesn't need an MBA to figure this out.

Considering how much shit Dave has given various manufacturers over the years for skimping on components and cutting corners, I wouldn't exactly call him a favorable reviewer. But his attitude is exactly what makes him trustworthy in the eyes of us, the buyers of test equipment, so manufacturers will keep on sending him stuff to review/scrutinize.

[armandine2]

Dave may well have set some sort of YouTube template, which other EEs might follow but grudgingly.

... over 90% of the electronics videos I watch I fail to complete - mostly because they are vague narratives not applicable to the student / hobbyist.

teardowns, unboxing, and rants need to be especially well made/considered to cut through. 

[nctnico]

Scopes are expensive because development costs are enormous and the quantities are relatively small. And apparently, engineers are still going to buy them even at $20k a pop.
One doesn't need an MBA to figure this out.

Agreed. The amount of software running in a modern day DSO is mind boggling. For the mid range ones ($2k to $20k) you are likely talking 5 to 15 working years worth of development time. The hardware cost is peanuts in comparison to the software. So much so that you basically get a universal piece of hardware which is made more or less functionalby means of software options nowadays.

Where it comes to Dave's videos being more popular is because Dave simply is more easy / pleasant to watch & listen to. From Dave you get a consistent story and he doesn't seem to need a script to do that. OTOH the Kiss Analog guy is tiresome to watch & listen to. So he must be a good engineer 

[SiliconWizard]

If you designed / participated in designing a modern scope, you would actually realize that their market price is ridiculously low.

[Benta]

Who's "Eddie"? Never heard of him.
I remember "Eddie the Eagle" from the Olympics and "Flo and Eddie".
Perhaps I'm too old.

[HalFET]

He has a hard time delineating what he knows about and what his opinions, assumptions, and analysis are. It's not ideal to put it mildly.

[Kanbus]

Scopes are expensive because development costs are enormous and the quantities are relatively small. And apparently, engineers are still going to buy them even at $20k a pop.
One doesn't need an MBA to figure this out.

Considering how much shit Dave has given various manufacturers over the years for skimping on components and cutting corners, I wouldn't exactly call him a favorable reviewer. But his attitude is exactly what makes him trustworthy in the eyes of us, the buyers of test equipment, so manufacturers will keep on sending him stuff to review/scrutinize.

Yes. That's why the whole video just rubs me the wrong way. He claims to be an engineer but overlook perhaps the most significant cost.

Everyone will probably acquire som bias when given free stuff, but dave in my opinion is one of the best at balancing it.
Company's can only win by showing their customers that they'r willing to fix stuff after criticism. Like the glowing V-regulator in a piece of Rigol gear. Or was it Siglent? Point is they fixed it.

Dave may well have set some sort of YouTube template, which other EEs might follow but grudgingly.

More should follow though.

[Veteran68]

Eddie gets free stuff too, including from Kaiweets but also some higher-end stuff, just not as high-end and as much as Dave gets.

Eddie did a Fluke rant video a year or two ago, that Dave answered, and then Eddie responded to that one. Eddie owns several Flukes, but like many he feels like they're not a good value for most people. Dave actually agreed with him for the most part, but explained that it's not about the features of the meter, more about the brand and consistency through the years. Especially around government/defense contracts, which Eddie is quite familiar with since that's where he's spent much if not most of his career. It sounds like this scope rant is just a continuation of that same theme -- for hobbyists these brands really don't bring much value, and I have to say that I mostly agree with him. Don't get me wrong, I love all of my Fluke's, but I don't recommend them to hobbyists and amateurs unless they just want to have a Fluke for the brand. I've worked with but never owned a Tektronix or a Keysight scope, and honestly can't say that I ever would unless I just got a great deal on one. I'm perfectly happy with a Siglent. Although if I won the lottery, I'd probably spoil myself with a R&S just because I could.

Eddie is actually a pretty accomplished power supply engineer by all accounts, but he comes across as a bit odd and socially awkward. He definitely has an awkward presence on his YT videos. Sometimes I cringe listening to him. But if you watch enough of his videos where he actually talks about design and theory versus product reviews, you can tell he knows what he's talking about -- he just doesn't speak or present himself very well.

[Kanbus]

Veteran68
Eddie dunking on people for blowing their own money while most of he's career is in government blowing the same people's money too

[SiliconWizard]

The perspective of people depending on public money more than others is for sure a bit different.

[joeqsmith]

....
From my watching he seems to seldom go over much more than the claimed specs and test some Ohms and voltages. No real use cases.
....
My thought's on it all is that he doesn't really present the facts, but only talks from own experience. When he reviews products he "forgets" the negatives.
....
What's your thoughts?

He had posted me a few times about my meter tests confusing it with some sort of safety test.  At one time he was reviewing books and I recommended the power supply bible which he later showed.  Outside of that, I've not had any interactions with him.  Seems like a nice enough guy.     

Most product reviews I have seen are just unboxing with maybe a few basic measurements.  Many people reviewing them were clueless about part identification or they start to try and explain how some simple circuits work and fail.   On the other hand, I found many of Dave's early DMM reviews very entertaining.  I still watch when he makes a new one.  Not for the technical merit, just for the fun of it.  I appreciated that Dave would at least do some basic checks, like plugging the meters into the wall socket and running them through all their modes. 

In the end, there is endless content available.  Rather than complain about specific channels, just find something you like.   I doubt you will find many reviewers who are going to care what you have to say enough to change their format.  So really, what's the point?

[Kanbus]

Have you seen the video Joe?
I don't have any hopes that he will change anything, nor do I try to force him too.
You're right, there is enough content out there to just pass on what's not interesting. I like your stuff for example. I have never complained about a Youtuber before, but this video just was too much. But I guess there is no real point or end goal.

[tom66]

Having used a few recent Tek scopes I'm not convinced they are worth the money compared to their Chinese competitors.  That said, they might have improved, I last used an MDO3000 and whilst the RF functions were impressive the overall software package on the instrument was not that great.

[schmitt trigger]

Tek’s market dominance and heyday was during the large CRT era.
Tek’s CRTs and video drive circuits were second to none. They were the pinnacle of engineering and black magic.

But back to Kiss Analog’s video rant: my feeling is that he is actually jealous of Dave’s blog. He spends many minutes explaining all of his accomplishments, and attempting to put down Dave. All signs of jealousy. 

If Dave’s blog is more popular, there is a simple reason: Dave is far, far, FAR more enjoyable to watch and most importantly, to learn from. He spices up the conversation with witty remarks: “good enough for Australia”, “winner, winner, chicken dinner” and my personal fave “assembled by nude Swiss virgins”. All without losing track of the technical conversation.

[joeqsmith]

Have you seen the video Joe?

I have not.  I watched a few of his early videos when he first started out after he wrote me.   I was curious to see what testing he was going to do.  I haven't looked at what he has been up to since his book reviews.   

Working in the field,  I really have no desire to watch videos about anything electronics related unless they are on a subject I know little about.   Mostly I watch physics, astronomy, life science.   I also follow a few channels on wooden sail boat restoration and steam engines.   Of course, Guy Martin's channel.  Dave's videos were an exception as I see the entertainment side. 

I don't have any hopes that he will change anything, nor do I try to force him too.
You're right, there is enough content out there to just pass on what's not interesting. I like your stuff for example.

If I watch my early content, I cringe.  That's why I edit down videos so much now.   Packing a week of testing into an hour or two is an art that I have yet to master.

I have never complained about a Youtuber before, but this video just was too much. But I guess there is no real point or end goal.

I get lots of complaints.  Welcome to the world of YT.   

[hans]

I haven't watched the video for longer than 5 minutes.. as I then realized I don't have time to listen for 1hr to someones opinion.

BUT, if we're talking about Tek bang/buck in the educational segment -- then I can probably see why they can be - or simply are - overpriced. For many use cases we shouldn't be paying for that.. but it also happens to be the cheapest scopes in Tek's line-up. So if you want to buy quality brand on a budget, then you're potentially paying for crap you don't need.
I must say I'm somewhat amazed you can spend almost 2kEUR on a 2ch 200MHz Tek scope with a whopping 20kpts of memory. 

However, this is similar to one buying a Fluke DMM with Cat IV ratings and whatnot, and then only using it for low-voltage projects.

Dave has done a blog on why Fluke DMMs are expensive, and when/why you would(n't) need one. I think this logic can be applied to all brands that build up a reputation from their continued legacy offerings: not in particular chasing bang/buck at every segment of the market. You're not the right customer. So going as far to say that any let alone all products are a bad deal, is cutting it a far too short IMO.
For that reason, hobby or a small workshop may be ""fine"" equipped with Rigol scopes, Uni-T meters and JBC imitation irons, while a larger company has strict rules on which brands to buy.

[HalFET]

Tek’s market dominance and heyday was during the large CRT era.
Tek’s CRTs and video drive circuits were second to none. They were the pinnacle of engineering and black magic.

Tek went downhill when they were bought out by Danaher. Same is happening to Fluke, they haven't really done or made anything "new" since they were acquired by those scumbags. I'd take it a bit further and say that anything Danaher/Fortive touches turns to crap:

• Leica's microscopy division
• Weller
• Pantone/X-Rite (yes, that was also them)
• ...

Basically, fuck Danaher/Fortive/Apex. And that's without getting into discussing Tek's software development practices.

[unknownparticle]

I can't work out the guys surname, all I get is Eddy whohar here!!  Anyone know his actual name?  So, I think he is highly qualified and seems to know his stuff, just not very good at getting information across in a video. He often seems to get lost in what he's trying to explain then goes off on a tangent. Also quite opinionated, but both these traits are typical of engineering types, not all but typical.  Anyway, I would have less of a clue how to make a YT vid so shouldn't pass comment, just glad that some do so I get to learn about stuff I didn't know existed.

[Veteran68]

I can't work out the guys surname, all I get is Eddy whohar here!!  Anyone know his actual name?  So, I think he is highly qualified and seems to know his stuff, just not very good at getting information across in a video. He often seems to get lost in what he's trying to explain then goes off on a tangent. Also quite opinionated, but both these traits are typical of engineering types, not all but typical.  Anyway, I would have less of a clue how to make a YT vid so shouldn't pass comment, just glad that some do so I get to learn about stuff I didn't know existed.

Eddie Aho
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddie-aho/

[Someone]

For that reason, hobby or a small workshop may be ""fine"" equipped with Rigol scopes, Uni-T meters and JBC imitation irons, while a larger company has strict rules on which brands to buy.

Big companies are also interested in value for money and do buy "low rent" brands. Oddly enough there are situations where a small shop is better of with just a higher end item (if they absolutely need some higher end capability, the rest is already "free") as there may not be demand for simultaneous use, where as a big company is more likely to have a diverse fleet of equipment that can be allocated/used as needed across the simultaneous tasks.

[Black Phoenix]

For that reason, hobby or a small workshop may be ""fine"" equipped with Rigol scopes, Uni-T meters and JBC imitation irons, while a larger company has strict rules on which brands to buy.

Big companies are also interested in value for money and do buy "low rent" brands. Oddly enough there are situations where a small shop is better of with just a higher end item (if they absolutely need some higher end capability, the rest is already "free") as there may not be demand for simultaneous use, where as a big company is more likely to have a diverse fleet of equipment that can be allocated/used as needed across the simultaneous tasks.

A little more and we have the same situation as in Hollywood no? People freelancing are only taken seriously if they are using RED or ARRI. If you are using for example an also capable but less expensive brand as the Z Cam you are not taken as a professional.

[schmitt trigger]

Tek went downhill when they were bought out by Danaher. Same is happening to Fluke, they haven't really done or made anything "new" since they were acquired by those scumbags. I'd take it a bit further and say that anything Danaher/Fortive touches turns to crap:

• Leica's microscopy division
• Weller
• Pantone/X-Rite (yes, that was also them)
• ...

Basically, fuck Danaher/Fortive/Apex. And that's without getting into discussing Tek's software development practices.

Had to look Fortive up. All I can see is that their website is full of undiluted corporate bullshit. Using all the usual hollow but crowd-pleasing phrases: “Making the world stronger, safer and smarter.” “Though we’re spread around the globe, we’re united by a powerful continuous improvement mindset.”

There were many more “gems” like these, but I felt that I would barf my lunch if I continued reading.

[HalFET]

For that reason, hobby or a small workshop may be ""fine"" equipped with Rigol scopes, Uni-T meters and JBC imitation irons, while a larger company has strict rules on which brands to buy.

Big companies are also interested in value for money and do buy "low rent" brands. Oddly enough there are situations where a small shop is better of with just a higher end item (if they absolutely need some higher end capability, the rest is already "free") as there may not be demand for simultaneous use, where as a big company is more likely to have a diverse fleet of equipment that can be allocated/used as needed across the simultaneous tasks.

You ain't getting something like a Uni-T over the threshold of a large company, the reality is that you usually have an entire department dedicated to purchasing things and it's not uncommon they actually have a safety checklist for lab equipment.

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, but I don't get the whole point anyway. It's not aimed at large companies. The cost of a scope is a concern for hobbyists and maybe very small companies. Otherwise it's an insignificant investment in all expenses that have to be made.
Why would you care about saving a few hundred bucks on some gear when the time spent by people to look for cheaper alternatives (with possibly problems looming after purchase) will cost maybe ten times that? It just makes no sense.
One can't reason for a company as we would as an individual.