Author Topic: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention  (Read 22704 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GeoffS

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Country: au
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2014, 05:24:33 am »
The subject is NOT guns.
I'd rather not lock the thread so get back on topic.

 

Offline nihilism

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2014, 05:56:22 am »
Most of the home insurance policy's in Australia exclude or put limits on a lot of things, even computers and especially any portable electronic devices (laptops, tablets phones, etc). Some allow you to list specific items you want covered for a higher premium.
I have a shed full of tools and around $20k worth of woodworking machines which are pretty much uninsured because of this. I'd need to speak to an insurance broker to get them insured, it's too complicated for the big insurance companies here to bother with.
 

Offline pickle9000

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2439
  • Country: ca
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2014, 07:26:39 am »
I really like cameras. In my experience most theft is related to persons working on the premises. Cameras are good for that sort of thing. I also had them installed over certain benches to monitor projects when at home. The last use is to make sure the premises are empty before entering an area (in case they bad guys are still there). As far as I'm concerned personal and staff safety first equipment second.

 
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2014, 10:25:50 am »
And while we're discussing this, Alarm Systems are probably right along the topic as well. I always wonder what an average neighbourhood burglar would think of modern lab equipment. Some things, like my LeCroy HDO4024, look like a all in one PC. Other things may look meaningless. Does anyone have experience with break-ins either at home or at work and can share some real world results?

I know that test gear turns in cash converters (a pawn shop chain) here in Australia.
Likely the majority of it stolen. They probably wouldn't think to research the item on ebay and see what the going rate it, they just hock it for whatever they can get.
I don't have contents insurance my for lab, but I'm thinking about getting some quotes.
I tried to get my (mostly older) gear insurred but it was impossible. The insurrance companies require to have a maintenance contract for the newer gear and consider everything older than 5 years worthless. I got a bunch of good locks and most stuff is heavy anyway. I don't believe an alarm system does much good. Noboby bothers to go look what is going on and/or call the police. You could spend more on an alarm system which notifies a private security company but the thiefs will be long gone before they arrive. I did see an interesting device demonstrated though: a smoke cannon which fills a room with theater/disco smoke within seconds. If thieves can't see they can't steal and it takes a long time for the smoke to dissipate even with the windows open. They are not cheap though and consume quite a bit of power.

BTW most of my older gear has been modified (enhanced) in some way so it is easy to recognize if someone would sell it. OTOH a couple of years ago a one of my power supplies got stolen at my employer. I tried looking for it on online market places but I never found it.

A major problem over here is that the law assumes stolen stuff is covered by insurrance. If someone buys a stolen item for a reasonable price and could not suspect it was stolen it is his/hers and you can't claim it back.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 10:50:36 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jpb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1771
  • Country: gb
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2014, 11:16:10 am »
I think I can list most items on my household insurance - I've certainly done this with my computer workstation which I paid £2k for but which new would have cost £5k+ but I've not done this for my scope yet.

I think theft is low risk where I live, the worse crime we've had recently is someone stealing the free range eggs that one of our neighbours sells outside his house with an honesty-box (some xx!!$$$ was turning up in a car and just nicking them!) Things like pedal bikes are much more likely to be nicked than electronics stuff which is hard to pass on.

Fire perhaps is more of a hazard, but if my house burnt down I'd be more concerned about documents, photos, all my books as well as furniture plus the huge inconvenience of it all.

The tricky part with electronics stuff is generally it is worth more than you pay for it - e.g. I spent ages finding a scope and got a 350MHz four channel one for a bit under £1500. If it disappeared and I wanted to replace it quickly I'd have to pay something like £3k+ to get a similar quality. The new scope would have much more memory and other features but there would be no easy option to acquire a replacement at £1500 say. The situation is even worse with old HP equipment say - if you get a good piece on e-bay  for $1k you probably won't be able to find a replacement any time soon but a modern replacement might be more like $10k. Do you insure it for $1k or for $10k?

On the whole I tend to follow the approach my first employers, GEC, used to take. When we went on trips to the States they didn't provide medical insurance they simply gave us a letter saying they would cover all medical expenses. Insurance companies make a profit so if you can afford to take the loss you're better off insuring yourself. I can't afford to replace my house so I insure it but though it would be painful I could probably gradually replace my electronics equipment so I'm not so concerned about the insurance, after all it is fun buying new equipment anyway!
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2014, 11:27:44 am »
I still don't know Dave's opinion on political debates on non-electronics or energy related subjects. I doubt he'd tolerate a religious debate, so I don't know his stance on a gun debate.

Guns debates ARE religious debates, and they are two of America's biggest problems. The third biggest problem is money in said politics.
It's always remarkable to note that those who support guns, are also those who were born in a country that worships them. Just like religious people almost always believe the religion of the country they were born into.

Quote
Basically, I want to know what Dave's stance is regarding discussion on this topic; then if he doesn't mind maybe we can start a thread dedicated to that subject.

Nope, no gun debates please, it simply won't end.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2014, 11:32:08 am »
I wouldn't both with actual stolen contents cover in my own lab, any cover I got would be a fixed amount in case of fire and/or water damage. Enough to keep me on my feet in a new rented lab with basic gear in the worst case scenario.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16385
  • Country: za
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2014, 02:22:46 pm »
Here the police ask " Do you want us to investigate your armed robbery, burglary, housebreaking, theft out of motor vehicle, theft of motor vehicle, hijacking, robbery with aggravated assault, assault, murder, rape"

I have had a few already. Does not help that the police are not well trained and often have difficulty writing a simple sentence if it does not fit in the learned form filling styles they have.
 

Offline M. András

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1014
  • Country: hu
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2014, 02:51:31 pm »
well i think for those in the US some properly made steel structured doors would be good start, thick walled box tube base in an outer shell and inside rectangle/honeycomb stucture over that a medium thickness metal plate covering the whole structure whichs must be made from a material which is hard to drill with conventional drills, proper hinges and locks, but ofcourse this cant be secured to drywalls.... nor wood. all of this covered with wood for astetics, apart from mechanical locks high holding force door magnets or deadbolt magets with a suitable entrace control system. pick the locks fine, but you wont get trough the magnetic locks unless hit with a truck, for the windows bars if you can stand the look of it. or some breakproof glass.

some of those entrance doors in the US which can be seen on movies and on different sites which sells these and theft prevention devices are a joke those thin wood doors and the little metal braces which prevents it from opening without force, here is used for door rooms not for entrance, seen a little marketing video not long ago on youtube a small brass bracket was used to prevent the door from opening it was 1 part fixed to the floor the other part was a slide in piece from even thinner brass whichwont withstand the force if you kick the door in or using a crowbar, hinges and locks pops right out of the wood

for the insurance if they operate in similar manners like here they wont pay even third of the things value when you call them out to pay their parts of the contracts
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16385
  • Country: za
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2014, 03:38:13 pm »
If you want physica security you need tall galvanised steel bar fence, razor wire on top ( and bottom, but here the bougainvillea hedge it replaced cover that pretty well with the spikes and barbs) with electric fence to slow down climbing over the top. then door with external security door ( not bought but made from steel tube, 10mm steel rod and steel plate) with solid wood door. Has decent locks ( not the 99c special you see in the hardware store, but proper commercial property locks from a commercial fittings specialist) and heavy steel burglar bars over every window, so that nothing larger than 10cm can get through even without glass. That last makes it Vervet monkey proof, as they cannot get through, and if the little ones come in they will be severely chastised then tossed out with a reinforced fear of humans.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2014, 04:13:46 pm »
Regarding thick doors: better don't use those. A thin door can be kicked in more easely by firefighters trying to resque you from your burning home.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Towger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1646
  • Country: ie
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2014, 04:37:21 pm »
No point in having a steel reinforced door unless the walls are made of reinforced concrete and the door frame properly  fixed into it.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16385
  • Country: za
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2014, 04:54:32 pm »
This is  South Africa, you do your own fire pool.
 

Offline M. András

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1014
  • Country: hu
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2014, 06:57:26 pm »
No point in having a steel reinforced door unless the walls are made of reinforced concrete and the door frame properly  fixed into it.

ordinary bricks do the same with long bars drilled into them to secure the door. but its mostly standard in most parts of the world but in america wood and drywall has its place mostly which wont stand a chance support 200-400kg of steel from falling out from its place


as for the fireman cant get in, well be it. install a fire supression system but the thief wont get in too, or coat everything with fireproof paint etc. but i doubt atleast in my case the bricks which is the house is built from would burn or the concrete above and below. for electrical fires, i keep nothing crappy made thing switched on, or even plugged in if the mechanical switch only have 1 set of contacts.
 

Offline Towger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1646
  • Country: ie
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2014, 07:19:52 pm »
I have see the result of a break in where there was a concrete brick wall and the security door was left securely locked, in its frame, on the ground.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16385
  • Country: za
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2014, 08:02:28 pm »
Ash brick is softer than genuine fired clay brick. If you buy clinker brick you have to use either a diamond cutter or a sharp blade and 4lb hammer to cut them, and once in a wall they survive pretty much anything short of a truck hitting the wall. Regular clay fired brick survives almost as well. You know you have a strong wall when hanging a picture **REQUIRES** a SDS drill, as you otherwise bend a masonry nail or rapidly blunt a regular masonry drill bit in a regular hammer drill.

Ash filled cinder block cuts with a standard builders trowel, some are so weak they break just picking them up. Mounting into them with a wall anchor is difficult because anything over 10kg needs a bracing plate to spread the load. Putting a wall mounted water cylinder means drilling through and putting a steel plate on the other side then plastering it closed after hanging the geyser. I have seen some which were weaker than a standard 12mm drywall wall.
 

Offline kripton2035

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2712
  • Country: fr
    • kripton2035 schematics repository
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2014, 08:24:48 pm »
this is not efficient against fire, but for robbers yes
engrave your driving licence number, on every important lab gear.
if the police find a thief's hidden cache, they will recognize a driver licence number
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2214
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2014, 08:34:05 pm »
this is not efficient against fire, but for robbers yes
engrave your driving licence number, on every important lab gear.
if the police find a thief's hidden cache, they will recognize a driver licence number

Engraving does provide a means of ID, but most of the people buying stolen stuff don't care who's name is written on it.  Here in the US as least, if the shitty criminal justice system would do their damn job and keep these people locked up, much of the problem would go away.

Offline Rigby

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1476
  • Country: us
  • Learning, very new at this. Righteous Asshole, too
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2014, 02:02:14 am »
Engraving does provide a means of ID, but most of the people buying stolen stuff don't care who's name is written on it.  Here in the US as least, if the shitty criminal justice system would do their damn job and keep these people locked up, much of the problem would go away.

A very large percentage of thieves pawn their loot.  Pawn shops take their information, as they do, then call the police.  My employer has had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of scopes pawned as "digital TVs" and gotten them back within 4 hours.

Jail is not meant to house a criminal indefinitely, except in specific circumstances; jail is supposed to convince those within to stop committing crimes.  It does nothing of the kind.  Personally, I believe that jail should not be used to segregate or separate criminals, but to rehabilitate them with the intention of release, for most.  Other countries focus on rehabilitation and accordingly have very, very low crime rates, and nearly zero repeat offenders.  I'd like to see that in the US.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2014, 04:37:33 am »
I just got a quote for business contents insurance from Allianz
$30/month for $50,000 "material damage" contents insurance, $500 excess.
That includes flood (presumably fire in another part of the building and my lab gets soaked by the sprinkers, or water mains break in the roof?)
They also want $43/month for $10M public liability insurance, and it seems you have to take both.

Quote
Material Damage cover is designed to provide protection for Your Business property from Damage caused by any sudden, unexpected or unforeseen occurrence not otherwise excluded. Under this cover, You are protected for all of Your critical assets enabling You to re-build your Business.
If You have chosen to insure Building and Contents cover, You will notice that We have pre-populated the Sums Insured under this section, You may choose to alter Your values or alternately incorporate Your requirements for these components.
Cover is available for Your Building, Contents, Stock in Trade and Customers goods.
There are a number of additional benefits which are available:
    Removal of Debris covers the removal, storage and / or disposal of debris, up to the greater of 10% of the Sum Insured or $50,000
    Fire extinguishment covers the cost incurred to replace fire fighting appliances or damaged materials caused in avoiding or minimising damage $25,000
    Temporary protection covers safety and protection of property pending replacement or repair $25,000
    Professional fees covers fees incurred to reinstate property, up to the greater of 10% of the Sum Insured or $20,000
    Government fees covers statutory authority fees incurred with reinstatement of Your Business property $5,000
    Rewriting of Records covers the cost of rewriting Your Business records $25,000
    Flood, if available and selected
 

Offline Phaedrus

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 714
  • Country: us
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2014, 04:46:34 am »
Flood insurance is often just that: only for natural flooding events or storm surges. A safe bet in most parts of Australia. Sprinklers or a water mains break would probably fall under something like "water damage".

In New Orleans, after Katrina, thousands of people had their hurricane insurance denied, on the grounds that the damage was actually due to "flooding" from the levee breaks or storm surge.

I trust insurance brokers less than used car salesmen.
"More quotes have been misattributed to Albert Einstein than to any other famous person."
- Albert Einstein
 

Offline electrolux

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 244
  • Country: gb
    • Photography
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2014, 01:58:10 pm »
And while we're discussing this, Alarm Systems are probably right along the topic as well. I always wonder what an average neighbourhood burglar would think of modern lab equipment. Some things, like my LeCroy HDO4024, look like a all in one PC. Other things may look meaningless. Does anyone have experience with break-ins either at home or at work and can share some real world results?

I know that test gear turns in cash converters (a pawn shop chain) here in Australia.
Likely the majority of it stolen. They probably wouldn't think to research the item on ebay and see what the going rate it, they just hock it for whatever they can get.
I don't have contents insurance my for lab, but I'm thinking about getting some quotes.
The only thing it would be good for though is a fire. Theft isn't really an issue in the office complex I work in. It's not impossible, but given the after hours swipe card access, regular security patrols, many dozens of offices to chose from on many levels, and no real history of office breakins in the area. So the odds are vanishingly small.
I will have a 24/7 Dropcam soon with recording, but that doesn't stop anyone.
If a fire did happen though, restocking my lab is probably the least of my worries. I could probably rebuild a useful lab and all the video gear for under $10K if it came to that.
we've got cash converters here in the UK. Yeah I know it's a useless quote, but hey.
The funniest thing about this signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything its too late to stop reading it.
 

Offline jpb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1771
  • Country: gb
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2014, 02:11:37 pm »
They also want $43/month for $10M public liability insurance, and it seems you have to take both.

In the UK, from what I remember when running a small company, businesses legally have to have public liability insurance so insurance packages aimed at business would probably automatically include it. In fact I think we were legally obliged to display a certificate on the wall or maybe I'm confusing this with employer insurance.
 

Offline Kohanbash

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 175
  • Country: us
    • Robots for Roboticists
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2014, 04:55:12 pm »
Hi
If you put the gear you have on the home insurance policy form where it asks what you have, why would it not be covered (especially if you have proof/pictures that you have the said gear)?

If the total cost is in excess of your home owners policy you can typically get an umbrella policy to cover extras.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 04:58:04 pm by Kohanbash »
Robots for Roboticists Blog - http://robotsforroboticists.com/
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Lab Insurrance & Theft Prevention
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2014, 07:21:28 pm »
I just got a quote for business contents insurance from Allianz
$30/month for $50,000 "material damage" contents insurance, $500 excess.
That includes flood (presumably fire in another part of the building and my lab gets soaked by the sprinkers, or water mains break in the roof?)
They also want $43/month for $10M public liability insurance, and it seems you have to take both.

Quote
Material Damage cover is designed to provide protection for Your Business property from Damage caused by any sudden, unexpected or unforeseen occurrence not otherwise excluded. Under this cover, You are protected for all of Your critical assets enabling You to re-build your Business.
If You have chosen to insure Building and Contents cover, You will notice that We have pre-populated the Sums Insured under this section, You may choose to alter Your values or alternately incorporate Your requirements for these components.
Cover is available for Your Building, Contents, Stock in Trade and Customers goods.
There are a number of additional benefits which are available:
    Removal of Debris covers the removal, storage and / or disposal of debris, up to the greater of 10% of the Sum Insured or $50,000
    Fire extinguishment covers the cost incurred to replace fire fighting appliances or damaged materials caused in avoiding or minimising damage $25,000
    Temporary protection covers safety and protection of property pending replacement or repair $25,000
    Professional fees covers fees incurred to reinstate property, up to the greater of 10% of the Sum Insured or $20,000
    Government fees covers statutory authority fees incurred with reinstatement of Your Business property $5,000
    Rewriting of Records covers the cost of rewriting Your Business records $25,000
    Flood, if available and selected
Be sure to go over the fine print! I've seen insurance fineprint which basically rules out any coverage... Sometimes the fineprint is written is such an obfusticated way it is impossible to figure out what it means exactly. To me such texts mean: NEXT!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf