Author Topic: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?  (Read 8457 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« on: March 06, 2014, 02:56:50 am »
While watching the crisis in Ukraine on CNN this morning I couldn't help but notice these GAINT portable antenna arrays in the back.  Does anyone have any insight on these? They seem like some kind of radar system possibly, but there are so many in close proximity in this photo.
 

Offline Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2837
  • Country: be
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 03:31:59 am »
There is a rotating antenna, which is the omnidirectional target direction finder array and some scanning vertically, to detect the altitude of the target.
 

Offline Br0ski

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 27
  • Country: us
  • Comms Tech
    • Worldwide Social Gamers Network
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 05:15:34 am »
radar for air targets probably only rotate 90 or 180 so they need multiple units

the one to the right rotates 360 independent or the one on the top 360 deg coverage better distance that one than the taller ones
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:21:45 am by Br0ski »
5 yrs Electronics Technician in Military Satellite Communications: EHF/SHF/UHF/VHF/HF/VLF/ELF
I am no expert (still learning).
Worldwide Social Gamers Network - If you like to game come join us.
 

Offline Frost

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • Country: de
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 08:23:01 am »
Does anyone have any insight on these?

Maybe they belong to a older surface-to-air missile system like the S-300
 

Offline ivaylo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 594
  • Country: us
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 08:46:12 am »
Quote
probably only rotate 90 or 180

It doesn't rotate. It shakes up and down. Look at the thing on the left here

It is for accurate altitude measurements I believe. The old (80s) Russian military radar complexes used to have a bunch of rotating ones and at least one of these.
 

Offline Richard Head

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 682
  • Country: 00
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 09:30:57 am »
They are primary (as apposed to secondary) radar antennas.
The funny looking vertical parabola is called a height finder.
It has very high vertical resolution but terrible azimuth resolution.
The other (last picture) antenna is a horizontally mounted parabola that has excellent azimuth resolution (but terrible up-down res).
The two work in combination to determine with great accuracy the direction of an aircraft.

Dick
 

Offline ales22

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: cz
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 09:33:35 am »
@ivaylo In the picture is Tesla RP-4G or RP-5G made in Czechoslovakia. But you're right, We were part of Soviet union from '48 to '89, so it was deployed in Soviet countries. One should be in Kiev, National Aviation University: http://www.czradary.cz/rp4g16.html and here are some technical details http://www.czradary.cz/radrp4g.html (unfortunately in Czech only) "Presny pristavaci radiolokator" means Precision Approach Radar.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 09:42:52 am by ales22 »
 

Offline daqq

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1695
  • Country: sk
    • My site
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 09:47:19 am »
Quote
But you're right, We were part of Soviet union from '48 to '89, so it was deployed in Soviet countries.
Minor correction: We were part of the Eastern Bloc, not the Soviet union.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
 

Offline ales22

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: cz
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 10:14:24 am »
Yes, you're right. I wanted to make it simple, maybe too much.
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 10:27:03 am »


The two radars with elongated vertical dishes are - as was already explained - height finder radars, NATO nick name Odd Pair (because of the double antenna, a big one and a small one), original name PRV-13. Normally it is linked to a surface-air missile system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-5_Gammon

The double antenna to the right is a air surveillance radar, most likely a NATO nickname Bar Lock, original name P-35. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-35_radar

I used to serve in the German navy in signal intelligence 1989-91... These radars were placed everywhere along the Baltic coast of Eastern Germany, Poland, Russia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. We used to listen to and analyze the signals sent out by these radars. It is interesting now to see the actual antennas in such nice pictures  :-DD
 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2014, 01:25:52 pm »
Quote
The double antenna to the right is a air surveillance radar, most likely a NATO nickname Bar Lock, original name P-35. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-35_radar

Wow! Lots of information! Is it possible that some of these are even the older P-30  system? The P-35 says that:

Quote
The radar uses two antenna with azimuth scanned mechanically, but unlike the previous P-30 both antenna are horizontal, the radar not using the V-beam system to determine target altitude

Apparently the V-beam system used a dish fixed at 25 degrees and from the difference in range provided by the horizontal antenna and the tilted antenna an approximate altitude was obtained.  Sounds like an excellent simple vector refresher problem for students!

Either way, these are pretty old and incredibly powerful.  1MW systems from either 1955 or 1958 on the E/F band. 
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 03:26:03 pm »
Wow! Lots of information! Is it possible that some of these are even the older P-30  system? The P-35 says that:
Quote
The radar uses two antenna with azimuth scanned mechanically, but unlike the previous P-30 both antenna are horizontal, the radar not using the V-beam system to determine target altitude

At the time I was pretty amazed by how 3D information was acquired in old style systems, as much as I was amazed by more modern (talking late 1980s) technology using phase-array antennas.

As far as I can remember we have not encountered any  P-30 or "Big Mesh" anymore in the Baltic 25 years ago...

Also the upper of the two antennas in P-30 is actually tilted by 25 degrees:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/karte921.en.html

However, these might be ideas which could be used in small-scale microcontroller projects using ultrasonic range finders...
 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 03:37:02 pm »
Quote
Also the upper of the two antennas in P-30 is actually tilted by 25 degrees:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/karte921.en.html

Hmm.. I didn't notice that.  So that is a scanning of two beams and location by a direct 3D solver?

Quote
However, these might be ideas which could be used in small-scale microcontroller projects using ultrasonic range finders...

True.  Assuming the target size is small compared to the range such that the geometry doesn't kill the location.  Maybe even just some simulated data and asking students to solve it geometrically.  This is all pretty advanced for it's day though!
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 03:52:57 pm »
Quote
Also the upper of the two antennas in P-30 is actually tilted by 25 degrees:
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/karte921.en.html

Hmm.. I didn't notice that.  So that is a scanning of two beams and location by a direct 3D solver?

A truncated oval antenna like the ones you can see on all these pictures generates a radar beam which is a narrow stripe perpendicular to the long axis of the oval. This means that the horizontal antenna of the P-30 creates a vertical radar beam, while the tilted antenna generates a beam stripe which is tilted 25 degrees off the vertical axis.

Now both antennas are mounted on the same motor axis and rotate. At ground level both the vertical and tilted beam are parallel and any reflection from a target at ground level will show up at the same time for both antennas (which are working on different frequencies or sending out pulses with a time delay). But a target which appears at a higher elevation angle from the radar site, the tilted antenna will see it when the horizontal antenna is already pointing in a different direction - the higher the elevation, the further the upper antenna has to be rotated to "see" this target.

From the time it takes for the echos to return to the antennas you get the distance to the target and then it is just pure trigonometry to also determine the height of the object above ground.

The newer systems with two horizontal antennas are working simultaneously on several different frequencies or using a frequency sweep together with an antenna system which directs the different frequencies into different elevation angles. From the echos at the different frequencies the system then determines the elevation angle and from the time delay the distance. 

 

Offline ivaylo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 594
  • Country: us
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 04:36:10 pm »
Quote
NATO nick name Odd Pair

Love these enemy equipment nick names. It's funny the technicians working on them had their own nick names for them. The PRV-13 they called "Elephant" because when on, it looked like a giant elephant shaking its head up and down (can't find a video of it but the movement does look ridiculous, it's pretty rapid and quiet at the same time (exemplary mechanical engineering I guess, shaking all that mass on a mobile platform in a storm for example doesn't look trivial to me)). The P-30 they called "Christ". Now I realize it must have been a paraphrase on the local language of P-30 "Khrustal" (Russian: "????????"; English: crystal). Pure blasphemy...
 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 04:42:57 pm »
Quote
Now both antennas are mounted on the same motor axis and rotate. At ground level both the vertical and tilted beam are parallel and any reflection from a target at ground level will show up at the same time for both antennas (which are working on different frequencies or sending out pulses with a time delay). But a target which appears at a higher elevation angle from the radar site, the tilted antenna will see it when the horizontal antenna is already pointing in a different direction - the higher the elevation, the further the upper antenna has to be rotated to "see" this target.

I see! Thank you.  The link you posted earlier also has a link to a V-beam graphic.  http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an65.en.html
 

Offline Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2837
  • Country: be
 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2014, 05:03:47 pm »
They can be seen in movement here:
http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip-2673458-stock-footage-russian-radar-system-in-work.html?src=rel/5465027:9/gg

That setup has a little bit of momentum! The pedestal mounts have a lot of un-even loading unless that equipment in the vans is weighted at the back. 

I remember being up inside a WDR-88D weather radar a few years ago and marveling at how well it was balanced.  Just a small motor (or 3 fingers on your hand) was enough to rotate the dish. 
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2014, 05:49:53 pm »
That setup has a little bit of momentum! The pedestal mounts have a lot of un-even loading unless that equipment in the vans is weighted at the back. 

I guess that's one of the reasons why these big antennas only have a reflector consisting of a wire mesh. Otherwise it must be impossible to rotate them on a windy day.

Modern phase-array antennas don't rotate at all, instead you have four panels pointing into different directions. The beam deflection is by means of shifting the phase of the RF signal between neighboring antenna elements...
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 05:52:08 pm »
I remember being up inside a WDR-88D weather radar a few years ago and marveling at how well it was balanced.  Just a small motor (or 3 fingers on your hand) was enough to rotate the dish. 

one of these?
 

Offline daqq

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1695
  • Country: sk
    • My site
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2014, 05:53:02 pm »
If you're into big radars:

http://englishrussia.com/2013/08/01/date-with-lena-m/

Search the site for 'radar' for more.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
 

Offline uwezi

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: se
    • GreenPhotons
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 06:43:46 pm »
The link you posted earlier also has a link to a V-beam graphic.  http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an65.en.html

Another Eastern block V-beam radar is the ship-borne NATO nicknamed Head Net C. Here the tilted and vertical antennas are mounted rear-to-rear, which means that the height information is lagging 1/2 rotation behind.

 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 08:07:48 pm »
I remember being up inside a WDR-88D weather radar a few years ago and marveling at how well it was balanced.  Just a small motor (or 3 fingers on your hand) was enough to rotate the dish. 

one of these?


One of those! This particular one was a dual-pol prototype back in 2009.  It was then struck by lightning and down for awhile.  The mechanics were just beautifully engineered.  I remember them doing analysis of smoke plumes from wild fires with this in the off (non-severe storm) season. 
 

Offline geo_leeman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
    • Professional Website/Blog
Re: Large Ukraine Portable Antenna Systems?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:23 pm »
Well, as long as things are moving slowly (as they were then) I guess that wasn't a huge problem.  It looks like these scanned at about 7 RPM max, so < 5 seconds lag isn't too bad. 


The link you posted earlier also has a link to a V-beam graphic.  http://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/an65.en.html

Another Eastern block V-beam radar is the ship-borne NATO nicknamed Head Net C. Here the tilted and vertical antennas are mounted rear-to-rear, which means that the height information is lagging 1/2 rotation behind.




 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf