EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: poorchava on August 08, 2014, 06:23:29 am
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I'm in the market for a relatively cheap barebones FPGA board and Lattice Mach XO2 breakout caught my eye (it's the one Mike Harrison used for high iPod LCD hack). I've tried to find it locally or on bigger sites that have reasonable shipping rates (that is: limited to Farnell and TME, +locak embedded centered retailer - Kamami). The board costs around 170-200PLN which is ~45€ or $60. Hmm, not expensive, but not stellar either. Then I looked at Lattice online store, and they have it for $23. 'Nice' I thought, 'add another $25 or so for shipping and it still pays off'. Well...............................
(http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii588/poorchava/junk/2014-08-0808_10_47-LatticeStore_ShippingandPayment_zpsf07f46df.png) (http://s1261.photobucket.com/user/poorchava/media/junk/2014-08-0808_10_47-LatticeStore_ShippingandPayment_zpsf07f46df.png.html)
What the bloody f**k are they thinking? That's outrageous even compared to Digikey's $60 shipping rate to eastern EU............
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They probably send it with UPS 24h Orbital drop , without consideration.
mod: OK, there is actually a picture...
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Yes, this happened to me too. Here is the email I got in 2012 (glad to see it's been fixed....)
Hello,
Thank you for your order. I first wanted to advise you of possible shipping costs before I processed your order. At this time the only shipping method we offer to our international customers is shipping via FedEx International Priority. I have done a shipping estimate and found that the estimated cost to ship a one pound package to <my address in AU> is $101.91 USD. Please note that shipping could be more based on the actual weight and dimensions of the package.
Please advise if you would like for me to continue to process this order, or if you would like for me to cancel.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
I ended up just getting the stuff from digikey.
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Well, it will be the same price as mouser since they are the ones handling the orders.
Maybe you can try some of these:
http://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=LCMXO2-7000HE-B-EVN (http://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=LCMXO2-7000HE-B-EVN)
http://www.findchips.com/search/LCMXO2-7000HE-B-EVN (http://www.findchips.com/search/LCMXO2-7000HE-B-EVN)
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I'm in the market for a relatively cheap barebones FPGA board and Lattice Mach XO2 breakout caught my eye (it's the one Mike Harrison used for high iPod LCD hack). I've tried to find it locally or on bigger sites that have reasonable shipping rates (that is: limited to Farnell and TME, +locak embedded centered retailer - Kamami). The board costs around 170-200PLN which is ~45€ or $60. Hmm, not expensive, but not stellar either. Then I looked at Lattice online store, and they have it for $23. 'Nice' I thought, 'add another $25 or so for shipping and it still pays off'. Well...............................
What the bloody f**k are they thinking? That's outrageous even compared to Digikey's $60 shipping rate to eastern EU............
What is outrageous about it? I just went to FedEx's website - a 1lb package in a FedEx Pak shipped International Priority to Poland is $101. UPS would be the same.
They could offer postal, but people in Europe are *ridiculously* cheap about shipping and will complain endlessly unless you offer first class postage for $15. But then they will expect and demand FedEx-like service for their $15 - they want an immediate tracking number and they want a refund if they don't have it in a week. Neither tracking or insurance is available from USPS for that $15... so you end up with chargebacks and complaining customers. Not to mention the hassle of dealing with shipping paperwork and the loss rate of international goods.
People don't buy a Hyundai and expect it to perform like a Ferrari, do they? But that's exactly what they want in international shipping. So what's in it for Lattice? Virutally anyone who is a serious customer for them will be happy to spend $80 in shipping to get needed parts quickly, or would already be "in the sales channel" and getting local support or complimentary dev kits from the local suppliers... so there is just no reason at all for them to deal with all the BS of cheap shipping to satisfy foreign customers who don't want to spend money.
Not directed at you personally at all - just my (unfortunately, extensive) experience in dealing with foreign customers. Very nice people, interesting people... but holy shit... try to get them to pay $50 to have something flown half way around the world and brought to them personally with updates along the way and a guarantee of delivery - and you'd think you just asked them to sell you their first born.
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Well if big international companies would bother to have a local warehouse on each continent there would be no problem. They were closer to the customer and shipping and import duties would be reasonable. They should look how amazon does it or use amazon as a reseller.
As I see it, it is not the absolute shipping cost it self that is the problem, it is the proportion to the product that is the problem, you pay 6 times more for shipping and duties then the products price, that is rediculous and the lack of choice for slower cheapers shipping methods.
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Well a good reason for people in EU being cheap about shipping, is that almost any shipping is international (western + central Europe is like 20-30 countries on area smaller than USA). Another thing is that in electronics we don't have a one-place-has-all retailers like DK and Mouser, we mostly have to order from several different distributors, so shipping costs multiply.
It's clear to me, that it's simply bad will from DK, Mouser and the likes. I mean Farnell can overnight stuff from UK to me for 5€+VAT or from Newark or $35. How come Mouser or DK can't do that? They're way bigger than Element14 and could negotiate way better prices for shipping.
And let's be clear: I don't expect overnight-drop-from-orbit shipping for $10, but some sort of economical delivery option would be really good. I mean what stops them from putting a disclaimer like: "When you order USPS shipping, don't expect us to give a shit about your lost package claim."? They have mail outgoing every day anyway, so not make some extra revenue on that?
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I just went to FedEx's website - a 1lb package in a FedEx Pak shipped International Priority to Poland is $101. UPS would be the same.
That comparison is not true. What they quote on their website is completely different from what business customers (especially big) pay. Sometimes difference is in order of magnitude. Farnell ships for 5 EUR (even 50kg order) in Europe with UPS express (next day), well yeah, they likely pay some part of that from the parts cost. For example I can get order for 20 eur + 5 EUR (+ VAT) shipping while UPS website quotes me 80 EUR ($ 107) just for shipping.
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Mouser ships from US orders over 65 EUR for free. That includes customs clearance so no need to deal with them + tax already paid by Mouser. Don't know how in Poland, but here in Latvia it's a hell to deal with customs when sent through any courier except post (EMS). You either pay approximately 30 EUR for courier, provide them ton of paperwork and (maybe) they will do clearance. Then you pay, another paperwork and then you get your package 4 days after it arrived. Otherwise you spend 1-2 hours at customs as itself, but as they are outside the city you will fuck up a half of the day on that but need less paperwork. Therefore I prefer to deal with customs directly. Or not to deal at all, just use post if possible. Better to wait a 1.5 week more than get that experience.
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provide them ton of paperweight and (maybe) they will do clearance. Then you pay, another paperweight and then you get your package 4 days after it arrived.
Wraper,
Hope you don't mind my correcting you but I think the English word you are looking for is paperwork, a paperweight is a heavy object used to stop paperwork blowing away.
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Well, Polish customs have a nasty habit of adding VAT from shipping cost, even if it's free. They see it as a service that has some particular value, even you haven't paid anything for it. And BTW Fedex sucks at this. Farnell adds VAT to your invoice, and package is literelly next day at the door. I ordered from Digikey once via Fedex and it took them about 10 business days and shitload of communication to solve all the customs mess, whereas DHL (from another distributor) handles it all themselves and just charge all the fees at delivery. It takes them 1 day or something like that. I never use Fedex unless I have completly no choice.
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Well, Polish customs have a nasty habit of adding VAT from shipping cost, even if it's free.
One more problem with courier services. Now your $25 part became over free limit. So not only you get headache but will pay all that VAT on part itself + expensive shipping. It stops me from buying something quiet often if no shipping through the post is available. Here in Latvia no one except post have a contract with the customs about clearance. So you need to send them power of attorney each time to deal with this stuff. Moreover if they fuck up something, you are are who have legal responsibility, not them.
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What the bloody f**k are they thinking?
You always have the option not to buy.
That's the beauty of a free market: don't do business with anyone you don't like.
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It's clear to me, that it's simply bad will from DK, Mouser and the likes. I mean Farnell can overnight stuff from UK to me for 5€+VAT or from Newark or $35. How come Mouser or DK can't do that?
Because farnell stock and warehouse is in the uk and many other european countries.
Digikey and mouser stock is only in the us. 4000 miles further than the uk.
Simple , no ?
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If Mouser and DK estabilished a well-stocked warehouses in EU, they would weed out all the competition like Farnell, Elfa, TME and such. Why they choose not to do it? My bet would be on dumb bean-counters
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Wouldn't be easier for Farnell, Elfa, TME and such to carry your Mach X02 board?
Why don't you ask them to stock it?
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Farnell has some Lattice boards, but not this one, TME carries only chips, not devboards, and Elfa seems not to be distributing any Lattice parts. Problem with European distributors is that they don't have mcuh solid competition and therefore the prices are rather high. I mean come on, anywhere I can find that stuff in EU it costs double of what Digikey or Mouser wants.
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If Mouser and DK estabilished a well-stocked warehouses in EU, they would weed out all the competition like Farnell, Elfa, TME and such. Why they choose not to do it? My bet would be on dumb bean-counters
The whole reason they can maintain the kind of catalog and price advantage they got is because they concentrate all their effort on running a single warehouse well. Trying to run like RS or Farnell would just turn them into another RS or Farnell.
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I just went to FedEx's website - a 1lb package in a FedEx Pak shipped International Priority to Poland is $101. UPS would be the same.
That comparison is not true. What they quote on their website is completely different from what business customers (especially big) pay. Sometimes difference is in order of magnitude. Farnell ships for 5 EUR (even 50kg order) in Europe with UPS express (next day), well yeah, they likely pay some part of that from the parts cost. For example I can get order for 20 eur + 5 EUR (+ VAT) shipping while UPS website quotes me 80 EUR ($ 107) just for shipping.
The difference in price corporations pay isn't nearly as much as you think. Discounts run maybe 10-30% unless you are so large that you negotiate directly (like Amazon or something). $55 for FedEx Priority already *is* double-digits percent off FedEx book rates, so it most certainly isn't a ripoff.
Farnell isn't shipping from the USA like Lattice would be, so the example isn't comparable.
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Well a good reason for people in EU being cheap about shipping, is that almost any shipping is international (western + central Europe is like 20-30 countries on area smaller than USA). Another thing is that in electronics we don't have a one-place-has-all retailers like DK and Mouser, we mostly have to order from several different distributors, so shipping costs multiply.
It's clear to me, that it's simply bad will from DK, Mouser and the likes. I mean Farnell can overnight stuff from UK to me for 5€+VAT or from Newark or $35. How come Mouser or DK can't do that? They're way bigger than Element14 and could negotiate way better prices for shipping.
And let's be clear: I don't expect overnight-drop-from-orbit shipping for $10, but some sort of economical delivery option would be really good. I mean what stops them from putting a disclaimer like: "When you order USPS shipping, don't expect us to give a shit about your lost package claim."? They have mail outgoing every day anyway, so not make some extra revenue on that?
No offense to you and your awesome country (I LOVE Poland), but it's not a big market for me and I doubt it's a big market for Lattice or many other companies. So what reason should they jump through hoops to ensure Polish customers get what they want? They would lose money giving you what you want. I want Kate Upton but I don't expect her to come knocking just because it's what I want.
You say you don't have one-stop-shopping retailers like Mouser and DK... why do you think that is? If operating such a business would be a good idea as you think, why not start one? Start small and work your way up.
My guess is that it's not profitable, because everyone wants stuff shipped essentially for free, and nobody wants to pay EU prices (which have import duties and VAT included) when they can buy it from the USA and get parts cheaper. But, as I said above, people want their cake and to eat it too - they want cheap prices and cheap shipping as if they lived in the USA... well, that's just not realistic. To blame it on "bad will" from Digikey/Mouser is frankly very unfair to those companies, especially when your anger should be directed at your own government which makes it too expensive to profitably run a European distribution company. Why should DK/Mouser lose money because EU countries have onerous tax laws and are screwing their citizens on imports?
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and nobody wants to pay EU prices (which have import duties and VAT included) when they can buy it from the USA and get parts cheaper.
Your understanding of this isn't correct, at least not for the UK or Sweden. You pay VAT and import duty on items bought from the US.
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The difference in price corporations pay isn't nearly as much as you think. Discounts run maybe 10-30% unless you are so large that you negotiate directly (like Amazon or something). $55 for FedEx Priority already *is* double-digits percent off FedEx book rates, so it most certainly isn't a ripoff.
Farnell isn't shipping from the USA like Lattice would be, so the example isn't comparable.
What I can say that there is a bunch man in the middle services in UK, likely also in US from which you can order usual UPS/DHL,FEDEX.... pickup/delivery. So you order from their website, then arrives usual UPS/DHL/name it man and picks up a parcel. Difference is you usually pay 2-3 less than it would be ordering delivery directly. At least don't think that Lattice is so small that could not negotiate delivery prices and likely they do not run such sales directly anyway. Likely they hire Digikey or the likes to do it for them.
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and nobody wants to pay EU prices (which have import duties and VAT included) when they can buy it from the USA and get parts cheaper.
Your understanding of this isn't correct, at least not for the UK or Sweden. You pay VAT and import duty on items bought from the US.
I think he means as long as you stay under the exemption limit (in Holland around €25).
The problem is that the customs take the shippingcosts and add this to the value of the product which at itself is BS.
So if TS orders his $20 board with free shipping he has to pay nothing in duties and VAT since it is beneath the limit. But if the $90 shipping costs are added the total sums up to $120 and then (in Holland) he has to pay something like 5% duties and 21% VAT so the total will become $150+ for a $20 board.
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No import duty on low priced items I can imagine (less than 1300 SEK in Sweden, roughly 130 Euro), but no VAT? Are you sure you don't pay VAT?
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Here in Latvia there is no VAT under 25 EUR and no customs duty under 150 EUR. Few years ago VAT free limit was 10 or 11 EUR.
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No import duty on low priced items I can imagine (less than 1300 SEK in Sweden, roughly 130 Euro), but no VAT? Are you sure you don't pay VAT?
Yep the cost of the person that has to write the paperwork would cost more then the potential profit.
Nowadays with the internet shops they would be swamped with work that would cost more then there is to gain from it.
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Yep the cost of the person that has to write the paperwork would cost more then the potential profit.
Nowadays with the internet shops they would be swamped with work that would cost more then there is to gain from it.
In DK the VAT limit is 80 DKK (Approx 12.5 US$)
And the above is solved by allowing ie. DK-Mail to charge a $25 "Duty handling fee".
That's added on top of the 25% VAT on the (goods and shipping).
So a $13 unit gets hit by a $25 "Mail (VAT handling) fee" for handling the 4.25$ VAT to be payed.
/Bingo
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I suspect the "lowest" cost option with the least amount of surprises would be to order it from Mouser. Just order some other stuff you need anyways as well to pad the order to EUR 65 (free shipping). Just order some more fun dev boards ... you know you want to. ;)
From: http://eu.mouser.com/CurrencySelection.aspx (http://eu.mouser.com/CurrencySelection.aspx)
Incoterms: DDP is available to customers in EU Member States.
All prices include duty and customs fees on select shipping methods.
That way you avoid UPS/whoever from randomly charging you $328475324 for their Shareholder Satisfaction Optimization Service.
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and nobody wants to pay EU prices (which have import duties and VAT included) when they can buy it from the USA and get parts cheaper.
Your understanding of this isn't correct, at least not for the UK or Sweden. You pay VAT and import duty on items bought from the US.
That's how it's supposed to work, but the next request on everyone's list is "can you mark it as a gift or of low value so I don't have to pay taxes" - and VAT/import taxes are not always imposed anyway. The governments are generally going after the "big fish", not the individuals.
But the taxes are the biggest reason why stuff costs more in the EU than in the USA, and it's unfair to blame the US sellers for this. It's significantly more expensive to do business in and ship to Europe than to stick with only the USA.
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As I recall, in Spain specifically and Europe in general, lots of people try to cheat the system for income declaration, no wonder they had to go with the VAT and IVA systems and get their taxes from what people purchase.
It's too bad since I'm sure there are a lot of hard working Europeans that pay their due taxes on top of the astronomical sales taxes.
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There is talk about a free trade agreement between the US and Europe. If that would be signed would that mean we do not have to pay anymore duties or is that only for businesses and governments?
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Well, it's about import duty, I think VAT will still apply. I guess that depends on the country, but Poland has 0% duty rate on almost all electronic components. For example:
LEDs: http://isztar.mf.gov.pl/isztar/taryfa_celna/web/browsetariffi2_EN?expandelem=9405403980&Year=2014&Month=08&Day=13&Country=&issection=n&checkfinal=y&impexp=#POS (http://isztar.mf.gov.pl/isztar/taryfa_celna/web/browsetariffi2_EN?expandelem=9405403980&Year=2014&Month=08&Day=13&Country=&issection=n&checkfinal=y&impexp=#POS)
Resistors:http://isztar.mf.gov.pl/isztar/taryfa_celna/web/browsetariffi2_EN?expandelem=853321&Year=2014&Month=08&Day=13&Country=&issection=n&checkfinal=y&impexp=#POS (http://isztar.mf.gov.pl/isztar/taryfa_celna/web/browsetariffi2_EN?expandelem=853321&Year=2014&Month=08&Day=13&Country=&issection=n&checkfinal=y&impexp=#POS)
And the situation with tax evasion in Europe is a typical Catch-22. Governments impose large and in many situations unreasonable taxes to raise additional money. Since money largely gets defrauded or spent on flashy cars and dinners for ministers people are reluctant to pay, so they evade taxes, income to the country budget becomes smaller, so government imposes additional taxes making people evade them even more. Some time ago buttheads in our ministry of finances wanted to impose income tax on money raised from charity events... In general 1/3 of what I earn is actually taken by government without giving anything in return (eg. if I want to go to a public clinic to see a doctor I'd need to wait about 3 weeks for general MD and from 3 months upwards for a specialist. So I go to a private practice and pay again...). On top of that most serious employers guarantee private healthcare for their employees, because public one doesn't generally work :palm: I've heard tha in Scandinavian countries situation is a bit different though.
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Like some cars and dinners are going to make a difference, but yeah I get it. Find a reason to evade taxes.