EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

General => General Chat => Topic started by: Gary350z on May 23, 2016, 05:27:55 pm

Title: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on May 23, 2016, 05:27:55 pm
My experience with alkaline AA and AAA batteries is horrible.
Due to battery leakage I have lost a Nikon camera flash $350, a spelling checker $40, a wall thermostat $50, a bathroom scale $30, two wall clocks $20, and a analog multimeter $40. Total loss $530!!!!! :scared:  And that's just what I can remember right know.
The clocks, bathroom scale, and spelling checker were still running fine. :wtf:

I googled this subject and got a massive result. It turns out this is a common occurrence. There are lots of people with experiences very similar to mine.
It turns out all alkaline AA and AAA batteries leak. The brand does not seem to matter.
They even leak just sitting in the package before their expiration date. Their stated 10 year shelf life is a complete joke and a lie.
C and D alkalines don't seem to have a leakage problem, only the AA and AAAs.
Also my research shows this is a relatively recent problem, only showing up in the past 10 to 15 years. It seems like something changed 10 to 15 years ago and now the batteries are crap.

Many knowledgeable people recommended Energizer lithium batteries. They said Energizer lithium batteries never leak.

I now use only Energizer lithium batteries. They are expensive, but there is no other choice.
I guess you could use those eneloop rechargeables, but I don't know much about them. I have heard a lot of people are using them.

Back when I looked up this information, I was so mad I made a record of what I found. It's a bit long but here it is if anyone's interested:

 #############################################################################

Leaking Duracell, Energizer,& Rayovac batteries

Duracell, Kaneohe, Hawaii Complaints & Reviews - Leaking batteries
Posted: 2009-12-19 by    gb o 

Kaneohe, Hawaii
United States
 
Hi all,

I want to warn everyone to stay away form Duracell batteries. I have been using Duracell batteries for years and in the past I have been very pleased with the batteries, but not anymore. We have been buying our batteries form Costco and recently I went to start my annual changing of the batteries in various devices and lo and behold I found leaking Duracell batteries not just one and not just in one appliance, but multiples in a variety of different devices. I found the following:

1. Two leaking double AA batteries in a Force FX collector’s edition Light Saber, not easily replaceable. It took me two hours to cleanup the mess it made

2. Two leaking AA batteries in a $ 300.00 R/C car, (for the servos). Fortunately, these were in a battery holder and did no damage to the car itself – time to clean up the mess 30 minutes

3. Two AA batteries in another car remote control, time to clean and repair 2 hours

4. Four leaking AAA batteries in a Minolta SLR camera – time to clean up and repair 2.5 hours.

5. Two leaking AA batteries in a TV remote control, I had to buy a new one of these, (thanks P&G)

6. Three leaking AAA batteries in an X10 remote light controller, it had to go to that great electronic round file in the sky, (again thanks P&G).

I’m still not done. I am going through the house checking everything that takes a battery wall clocks, alarm clock etc.

Cost in my time far 6 hours, (so far) plus the cost of having to replace two pieces of equipment that were total losses and that fact that the other things I was able to cleanup and repair are no longer in the pristine condition I’ve always tried to keep them in. Further, all these batteries were within their acceptable use dates and what’s more other brand batteries that were installed in similar devices at the same time are fine.

Proctor & Gamble huh? gamble is right, they have apparently tried to save money by going with a cheaper manufacturer and it shows.

Not only have they lost a long time customer, but I will be posting this to every complaint board I can find and warning all my friends to stay away from Duracell batteries and will be returning what batteries I have left to Costco if they will take them back.

P&G you are a classic case of penny wise and pound foolish.

Does anybody know of a class action lawsuit in respects to quality issues/leaking problems with Duracell batteries I can join?

BTW the photo shows only some of the bad batteries, I should have kept them all and took picture of them plus the damaged devices before I cleaned/repaired and/or threw them away.

OMG I’m ANGRY!!!

Sincerely,

A FORMER Duracell customer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duracell Complaints & Reviews - Leaked
Posted: 2011-08-11 by    P R Suresh Samuel 
 
I had bought 8 DURACELL AA batteries expiring in 2013. I had fixed 4 batteries on my SLR a few weeks back. When I tried to use the camera it was not working. When I opened the battery compartment, I find that the DURACELL batteries have leaked & the camera is damaged beyond repair. I have the other 4 batteries in their original packing & I find that these DURACELL batteries have also leaked. I had made a customer complaint & since P&G wanted to collect the proof & evidences without a commitment, I refused to send the leaked batteries in the original packing & the damaged camera. It is interesting to note from Customer Service that it is the policy of P&G not to share the email ID's of their senior officers for escalating a complaint. Man, if this is the case let us all join & put in some sense that no company can exist without "CUSTOMER SATISFACTION.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Posted: Jul Fri 23, 2010 2:57 pm 
Use the PROCELL line and not the "copper-top" line.
At work in the shop, and on our high-def tv remote trucks, we exclusively use the Procells for all our battery operated broadcast equipment; wireless IFB, mixers, wireless mics, etc., and never have had leak issues.
Chuck Schwark,
The Philco Repair Bench
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Eveready Energizer Batteries Leaking
Posted: Jul Fri 23, 2010 2:25 pm 
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA 
Recently, I have had two flashlights destroyed by Energizer AAA batteries. The expiration date was 2012. I have had the battery pack of my David Clark headphones damaged by Energizer AA batteries 2013 and just recently, my Nikon Speedlight strobe, very expensive, damaged by Energizer AA batteries 2012. To say the least, I am not happy. Also, I replaced the batteries in my Son-in-law's weather station. They were C batteries and the one had swelled up and was hard to get out. Mind you, all of these devices still worked!!!
Don
-------------------------------------------------------------
 Posted: Jul Fri 23, 2010 3:30 pm 
I prefer not to use Eveready batteries. They can leak long before batteries are bad. If you have Eveready batteries wrap them in plastic. This reduces damage from leakage.
------------------------------------------------------------
Tendency to leak?, January 10, 2009
By A. Wiersch (Lantana, TX USA
Rayovac Alkaline Batteries AA Size
My experience has been that these batteries leak more than other brands like Duracell, Energizer, and Kirkland. And the battery was even dated DEC 2012 (it was Dec 2008 when this happened). I am not buying these anymore.
--------------------------------------------------------
Rayovac leaks!, January 1, 2011
By Mr Tweedy (Cornfield County, USA)
Rayovac Alkaline Batteries AA Size
I've used all the major brands of alkaline batteries and they all leak, but Rayovac batteries leak sooner than others. Why are Rayovac batteries so much cheaper than the other brands? I'm guessing that it is not because of their superiority in manufacturing productivity. More likely, they use a thinner metal casing that corrodes faster. No more Rayovac for me!

 #############################################################################

Here's the  info I found on lithium batteries.

Thread: Lithium vs. Alkaline AA batteries...leaking potential
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-02-2012, 08:38 AM #2 ragweed
I have had several Alkalines leak over the years. Switched to Lithiums & never had a problem with them. Eneloops are worry free also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-02-2012, 08:39 AM #3 Helmut.G
I've never heard of a Lithium AA leaking.
btw, never buy zinc-carbon batteries. They are often called "heavy duty" or "super heavy duty" and are a few cents cheaper than alkaline, but they suck.
They leak much more than alkaline, they have less capacity, way way less power, they just suck.
The only reason they're still being manufactured is people trying to save a few cents.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-02-2012, 10:03 AM #4 varmint
Question: Is a lithium battery safe in any device that uses alkaline? (same size batteries) (aaa)

02-02-2012, 10:11 AM #5 Helmut.G
No. Lithiums have a higher resting voltage as well as voltage under load and are capable of giving an electrical consumer much, much more power.
Some devices are designed to work with batteries in a way that relies on the battery's weakness and can't handle the power.
But most properly designed devices shouldn't have problems.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-02-2012, 01:00 PM #6 NeonLights
I've had countless flashlights (mostly Maglites) and other electronic devices ruined over the years from leaking alkalines. I still use alkalines in some devices, like remote controls, calculators and other devices that get used frequently, and are likely to have the batteries replaced within 6-8 months anyways. For most of my AAA and AA flashlights, especially those that stay in our cars for emergency use and are subject to temperature extremes, and my sit for 2-3 years with minimal use, I always use Energizer lithium cells. I've never had a lithium AA or AAA leak in the 8-10 years I've been using them. I did have one vent in a single AA Infinity Ultra a few years back, but no harm was done to the light,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-02-2012, 09:48 PM #7 angelofwar
Lithiums, as a rule, do not leak. If you buy a light, chekc the packaging etc. to see if it takes them. Sometimes they will list it on te package. If not, you may or may not fry the electronics. I think I fried two of my Inova X1's this way. But, as stated, a properly built item should be able to handle the initial higher voltage. The lithiums are great for leaving them in your items for extended periods, and knowing they will work. I left lithiums in my Insight M4 for 5-6 years, and it always worked like a champ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-03-2012, 12:21 AM #9 angelofwar
Stick with the lithiums N/A and you should be good...yes, alkalines still leak...alot!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-03-2012, 12:41 AM #10 ZMZ67
I have never had lithium batteries leak and use them in almost all my AA and AAA lights.Alkalines have leaked repeatedly for me,especially in flashlights.Alkalines seem to be better in low draw devices like remote controls but the leak potential is still there.Some lights/devices may not be able to stand the extra power of lithium AA/AAA so as A.O.W. stated check the packaging /specs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-03-2012, 01:42 PM #11 vali
For me is just simple:
- Lithium AA for those lights that will probably not be used in a lot of time (more than 1 year): Emergency lights, car keychain...
- Eneloops (or any other NiMH LSD) for those lights you use more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-05-2012, 03:10 PM #12 fnj
I have NEVER seen a report of an Energizer L91/L92 or Eneloop leaking under ANY conditions, nor a confirmed and believable report of an L91/L92 (or Eneloop, obviously) causing damage to any apparatus rated for alkalines.

 #############################################################################

Well that was pretty long. :phew:
Does anybody have similar experiences?

Bye for now,
Gary
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: ataradov on May 23, 2016, 05:52:16 pm
I've only seen batteries leak when they were abused by drawing excessive current and overheating. I've never seen a battery leak under normal use conditions in properly designed hardware.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on May 23, 2016, 05:56:07 pm
I've only seen batteries leak when they were abused by drawing excessive current and overheating. I've never seen a battery leak under normal use conditions in properly designed hardware.

It happens to alkaline AA and AAAs all the time. Even when still in package and before expiration date. :--
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: coppice on May 23, 2016, 05:57:29 pm
When alkaline cells were introduced one of the big selling points was no leakage. Now every make seems to leak, and they often don't take very long to do it.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on May 23, 2016, 06:19:29 pm
Maybe some of its handling - if a box of retail packs of cells has been dropped, its possible that some of the cell seals may have slightly cracked. 

I've got 26 discharged Kodak Extralife cells waiting to go to recycling here at the moment, (a mix of AA and AAA) and two are showing the first signs of leakage - a slightly discoloured sleeve with in one case 'fuzzyness' at the edge of the sleeve.  Both failed cells were a few months short of their expiry date.   Neither had leaked enough to damage any equipment and I haven't lost anything to leaking Kodak cells as far back as I can remember, but then I don't put short date cells in anything valuable that sits on the shelf for long.

YMMV as there are some absolutely horrible reviews out there.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrSlack on May 23, 2016, 06:20:42 pm
I've had Duracell's and energizers leaking galore. Total crap. On the other hand, GP Ultra not once. Purely anecdotal but a data point.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cubdriver on May 23, 2016, 09:01:54 pm
Duracells certainly no longer live up to their name.  I've had plenty leak and damage things over the past few years; far more than ever caused problems 15 or more years ago.  Waaay back in the day I can barely recall ANY ever leaking - now they crap out and puke on things well before their 'expiration' dates, and do this in things that are completely OFF when they're off, so it's not that the batteries are being depleted by dark current drawn by a device that's not truly off.

I've since switched to Energizers and thus far had better luck, though at this point my sample size on them is still very limited so it's too early to draw conclusions.

-Pat
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: splin on May 23, 2016, 09:26:17 pm
Did the change to mercury free formulations 20 years or so ago make a difference? FWIW the worst leakage I've had lately have been Duracell AA's in a Brother label printer after not much use. I've not had much leakage at all from lots of AA and AAA batteries but I hardly ever use the big brands - mostly cheap IKEA and READYCELLs which cost 10 to 15p each.

I have some unused Panasonic D cells (kept in a wardrobe so no temperature extremes) of which over half have leaked - not good. They have an expiry date of april 2003 however so perhaps not so bad. I tested one of the good cells a couple of years ago and it still had a capacity of over 12Ah with a load of 100mA. Pretty good for a 15+ year old battery. Especially as that one had seen some use in a bicyle lamp many years ago!
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: CatalinaWOW on May 23, 2016, 10:36:15 pm
I have only observed one example of a AA or AAA cell leaking in the package.  That battery had been stored in an automobile in southern Arizona for several years.  No other cases.  Not any brand, from the el cheapos provided with Harbor Freight Tools up through the premium brands.

Nearly all of them, in all sizes and all brands, will leak if allowed to discharge well below 1 volt.  Unfortunately I have quite a few examples of this.  I don't know what exactly what the voltage threshold is, but do know that if you leave a cell in a low power device for a few months after the device will no longer power up on the cells the odds of leaking are high.  I suspect that this is essentially what happened in the single case of cells leaking in the package.  The high self discharge resulting from the high temperatures in the car brought the voltage down below the threshold.

I am not discounting your experience, just pointing out that mine has been different.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on May 23, 2016, 11:20:09 pm
I've had Duracell's and energizers leaking galore. Total crap. On the other hand, GP Ultra not once. Purely anecdotal but a data point.

Given that counterfeiting is the new normal it's possible that the ones you're had problems with were. GP, on the other hand, are a decent brand but without the brand recognition that leads to counterfeiting. I personally use GP and Duracell Procell/Industrial bought in bulk from reliable suppliers, I've had no problems with either.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: nogood on May 24, 2016, 12:14:30 am
Leaking batteries suck. Sometimes the corrosive electrolyte works it's way through the hardware after some years...
I had to repair a carbon contact on a Sony ICF-7600D with silverbearing laquer, but I never had leaking batteries in there.
(On opening it some old damage was visible)

That said, I had maybe 1 leaking pair of batteries in the last 2-3 Years.
Even the totally dead ones in my TI calculators (Voyage 200 and 84 plus, which draw ~5mA standby!) had not leaked, after over a year of not using it.
And even if they had, that would have been my fault, because I did not remove them.

Your mileage may vary (which it does apparently).
I also do not buy expensive batteries, mainly cheap ones from supermarkets for around ~1,90€ per 8 AA cells

Edit: If part of the problem are fakes going around, then you should presumably be safe by buying vendor branded stuff, which is proven to be good.
All the cheap supermarket and ikea batteries (which I still have to test) are probably bought in bulk directly at the factory branded with whatever the buyer wants.
So I dont't think that anyone wants to counterfeit german supermarket chain batteries (which are already cheap) for profit.
Maybe Ikea is a different story, as are Energizer and Duracell obviously (the latter ones with good profit margin on counterfeiting too).
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on May 24, 2016, 12:16:51 am
Yes, alkaline batteries leak.

I think the reason leaking batteries are seen more often recently is that the newer "high power" formulations are more leak prone than the simple, ordinary formulations that preceded them.

Ironically, if you buy the big name brands with big marketing claims on them like "high power", "high performance", etc. you are more likely to experience leaking.

On the other hand, if you buy lower cost alkaline batteries from the dollar store with brand names like Sunbeam, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Sanyo they are much less likely to leak.

The usual cause of leakage is gas bubbles forming inside the battery that raise the internal pressure and squeeze electrolyte out through the seals. This seams much more common with the "high performance" formulations.

I use Sunbeam brand batteries in clocks and remotes. I use Eneloops in everything else. I haven't seen a Sunbeam battery leak yet (but there could always be a first time).
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cubdriver on May 24, 2016, 01:17:02 am
Yes, alkaline batteries leak.

I think the reason leaking batteries are seen more often recently is that the newer "high power" formulations are more leak prone than the simple, ordinary formulations that preceded them.

Ironically, if you buy the big name brands with big marketing claims on them like "high power", "high performance", etc. you are more likely to experience leaking.

On the other hand, if you buy lower cost alkaline batteries from the dollar store with brand names like Sunbeam, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Sanyo they are much less likely to leak.

The usual cause of leakage is gas bubbles forming inside the battery that raise the internal pressure and squeeze electrolyte out through the seals. This seams much more common with the "high performance" formulations.

I use Sunbeam brand batteries in clocks and remotes. I use Eneloops in everything else. I haven't seen a Sunbeam battery leak yet (but there could always be a first time).

Hopefully you haven't inspired Mr. Murphy to action with that comment!   :o 

I'll have to look into some of the less mainstream brands next time I need batteries.

-Pat
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: BravoV on May 24, 2016, 01:30:50 am
I've only seen batteries leak when they were abused by drawing excessive current and overheating. I've never seen a battery leak under normal use conditions in properly designed hardware.

Really ? I let these photos speak for it self.

Btw, does Fluke 287 considered as a "non" proper designed hardware ?

These photos were taken at Oct 2013, watch the battery's expiry date and the damaged at the fluke's terminal.  :--

Fyi, the Fluke 287 battery indicator was displaying "full battery" when these cells were inserted, so go figure.  :palm:


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64864;image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64866;image)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on May 24, 2016, 01:54:31 am

I'll have to look into some of the less mainstream brands next time I need batteries.


Look out for GP (Gold Peak). Not only do they make decent batteries but they do good datasheets for them too - very helpful if you're designing something with an unfamiliar size battery.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: coppice on May 24, 2016, 02:41:31 am
I've had Duracell's and energizers leaking galore. Total crap. On the other hand, GP Ultra not once. Purely anecdotal but a data point.
Duracells leak. Energizers leak. GPs leak. Panasonics leak. Fakes leak. Originals leak. There are plenty of fakes of all four of those brands, and I'm not sure they are any worse than the originals. I no longer know of any alkaline cells which can be trusted not to leak.

Its 32C-35C for more than half the year where I live. I wonder if people in cooler climates have less trouble?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: bitseeker on May 24, 2016, 03:02:38 am
AA and AAA alkalines leak all over the place. I've had them destroy all kinds of equipment, even those that spend their entire life indoors and away from any heat sources. It doesn't matter. It's only a matter of time before they destroy another electronic device.

I finally got so sick and tired of it that I switched to using only NiMH batteries in devices that require AA or AAA cells. No more problems. It's probably better practice to use rechargeable batteries, anyway, instead of disposable ones.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Mastrofski on May 24, 2016, 03:50:14 am
I'm surprised to see that people are having issues with Duracells. All Alkaline batteries leak, but it was my understanding that Duracell built their alkalines on the larger side of the IEC tolerance in order for the battery to leak on the inside of the can as opposed to on the battery holder contacts.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: bitseeker on May 24, 2016, 05:12:07 am
Duracells leak as much as the others. I once sent a device that was killed by Duracell batteries to Duracell to see what they'd do and they had it replaced. In addition, they gave me some coupons for...you guessed it, more Duracell batteries. *sigh*
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: coppice on May 24, 2016, 05:37:37 am
There is a comment on the Panasonic site http://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/battery/primary_batteries/technologies.html (http://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/battery/primary_batteries/technologies.html) that says
Quote
GUARANTEED TO LAST 10 YEARS* IN STORAGE

Panasonic Alkaline cells feature advanced Anti-Leak Protection that suppresses gas buildup when a battery is over-discharged or stored for a long period. Less pressure means less chance rupture, even in toys that are lost or forgotten for long periods.

* When unused and properly stored. 9 V batteries excepted.

As long as alkaline cells are all based around the same basic chemistry is there any reason to think none of them can leak. If the manufacturer claims 10 years and no leakage (when stored properly) and still always says to not leave batteries in devices that are left idle for long periods, then surely that is just a way of saying they will eventually leak in normal use.
The Panasonic alkaline cells that came with our Daikin air cons (and so presumably genuine) leaked in every remote control, and corroded the terminals.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Augustus on May 24, 2016, 08:04:06 am
Its 32C-35C for more than half the year where I live. I wonder if people in cooler climates have less trouble?

I'm to stingy to buy the big name brands so I can't say anything about them but the cheap ALDI alkalines (20 cent per cell) hold up quite well. I've never had one leak on me. Does anyone know who's the manufacturer of them? Though it's quite cold here compared to your place, maybe that's the reason for it  ;D

(http://www.wetteronline.de/?pid=p_rueckblick_climatediagram&src=rueckblick/vermarktung/wom/de/p_rueckblick_climatediagram/temperatur/klimadiagramm-10720-freudenstadt-temperatur.gif)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Jeroen3 on May 24, 2016, 09:20:59 am
I think those are units from the big names that didn't meet the spec. Ikea does this too, I've noticed slight change in details around the sealing and size of the terminals.

I use a lot of duracell industrial, never has one leaked. Not when I was looking, but they are good up to 2022.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: alank2 on May 24, 2016, 01:54:31 pm
Like many things, the quality has gone DOWN and price has stayed the same or gone UP.  Duracells used to have a very good track record of not leaking, because, it was very rare for them to leak.  Now that they are made in China, guess what, they leak just as badly as all the others.  Doesn't Duracell still sell BOTH a chinese version and a US version?  Not that i would be surprised for the US version to also leak now too.  It is best to use Eneloops in things you care about if possible.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on May 24, 2016, 02:05:13 pm
I have had pretty much every brand of alkaline leak.  Fewer with energizer and duracell but have had some.   I have had rayovac and radio shack leak still in the packaging and quit buying either a long time ago.

I have had radio shack, rayovac, and one other brand of NiMH leak as well.

One of the original letters where they had duracell leak in their SLR, they should have never put alkalines in there, cameras and any other high tech gear should always have eneloops.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Jeroen3 on May 24, 2016, 02:07:38 pm
The Duracell industrial say "made in Thailand". Which is different from China.
Some silicon vendors abandoned Chinese fabs because of poor quality and lack of mindset for improvement.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on May 24, 2016, 02:29:43 pm
With high drain devices like cameras, the batteries are abused (or nearly so) every time you take a photo.  Its just common sense to take the batteries out if you aren't going to be using it again in the next couple of days.  If there are settings that need the batteries in for them to be kept, put in fresh batteries after powering down at the end of the shoot and use up the partially discharged ones in something else, but then you need to be a bit anal about checking them regularily.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on May 24, 2016, 07:09:13 pm
Here are a couple of documents produced for Energizer alkaline and lithium batteries.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/alkaline_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/alkaline_appman.pdf)
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf)

Neither of them make a claim that the batteries will not leak.

Not true.

Here's info for energizer lithiums:

First their playing word games
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=227378;image)
http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-leakage)

For Advanced lithium - leak proof
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=227380;image)
http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-advanced-lithium-batteries (http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-advanced-lithium-batteries)

For lithium in general - superior leakage resistance
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=227382;image)
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf)

For lithium Ultimate - leak proof
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=227384;image)
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/Lithium%20Intrinsic%20Safety.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/Lithium%20Intrinsic%20Safety.pdf)

For lithium Ultimate - leak proof
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=227386;image)
http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteries (http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteries)

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: CatalinaWOW on May 24, 2016, 09:15:13 pm
Leak proof as two independent words is meaningless.  Like "Waterproof".  A coat that completely sheds water might be termed leakproof, but would be a poor choice to hold water.  A watch that can sustain swimming and scuba diving without any water getting in would be called waterproof, but would fill instantly with water if taken to the bottom of the Marianas trench.

So unless durations, temperatures and a number of other conditions are also specified the term leak proof is essentially meaningless.  (I'm sure these batteries would also fail at the bottom of the Marianas trench).  And even with proper description of the conditions it will only be a statistical measure, as in the literally billions of these things made there will be failures.

The term "leak proof" in dry batteries came into use when they transitioned from Carbon-Zinc with zinc forming the outer shell (except for a cardboard wrapper).  No matter how bad you think these current batteries are, they are golden gems compared to the ones that caused "leak proof" to be a valuable marketing term.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: bitseeker on May 24, 2016, 11:17:32 pm
It's just marketing hype. Why? Because Energizer does not claim that the batteries will not leak. What they claim is, "No Leaks. Guaranteed. Or we will replace your device." That's not the same thing.

Duracell makes the same claim, but with more words. "Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option. Leaking battery and damaged device must be provided as proof of claim."

In both cases, the batteries still leak and you can send them your damaged device. They'll repair or replace it, as I've successfully tested. It doesn't change the fact that their batteries still leak. It's just cheaper to repair/replace the few devices that people are willing to go through the trouble to make claims on than to create leakproof batteries.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 01:13:07 am
It's just cheaper to repair/replace the few devices that people are willing to go through the trouble to make claims on than to create leakproof batteries.

While that's probably true and certainly a commercially sensible approach, the way you have phased it suggests that it might somehow be possible for them to make leakproof batteries and yet they do not. I don't think a genuine 100% never fails leakproof battery that fits existing sizes and has a reasonable capacity is a possibility. It's just outside the envelope of engineering possibility. For a completely novel size and capacity of battery you might engineer a failure rate so close to zero that it's effectively leakproof, but not within the constraints of existing size/capacity combinations.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on May 25, 2016, 01:22:30 am
I do believe that lithium primaries have effectively 0% chance of leaking. This would be because their internal chemistry does not generate gas bubbles, therefore there is no internal pressure in the cell to expel electrolyte as happens with alkaline cells.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: bitseeker on May 25, 2016, 01:32:40 am
I don't think a genuine 100% never fails leakproof battery that fits existing sizes and has a reasonable capacity is a possibility. It's just outside the envelope of engineering possibility.

Depends on what's considered a reasonable capacity. Half what they currently squeeze in? I'd be happy with that to have no leaks.

As someone already pointed out, manufacturers have been striving for more capacity, which may be exacerbating the problem. If that is the case, it's kind of a self-inflicted problem for the sake of bigger spec sheet numbers to sell more product.

Anyway, the solution is simple enough. Use a different kind of battery.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 26, 2017, 01:37:05 pm
I realize this is an old topic but I'm at wits end with these leaking AA and AAA Duracells. Really bad! My wife's short wave radio just sat and so did the Yacht Boy. Countless digital clocks, remotes and the list goes on and on.
I'm going to Energizer lithium's and my trusted Eneloops.
Duracell sent me a coupon for their batteries. Gee thanks!
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rdl on October 26, 2017, 03:03:57 pm
Switch to NiMH. That's what I've done. Not much chance of leaking and much cheaper in the long run.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: mcinque on October 26, 2017, 03:05:45 pm
Duracell sent me a coupon for their batteries. Gee thanks!
Wow.
It's like if your car crashes because of "no crash tires" and they offer you a coupon to purchase another set of tires. Great.

Switch to NiMH. That's what I've done. Not much chance of leaking and much cheaper in the long run.
NiMH has a lot of self discharge, don't you?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rdl on October 26, 2017, 03:16:16 pm
NiMH has a lot of self discharge, don't you?

I bought all new, low self-discharge type NiMH ("Eneloop"), and half of the 9 volt I bought are Lithium-ion. The testing I've done so far, there's not enough self discharge to worry about, at least for the first few months.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: alank2 on October 26, 2017, 03:17:03 pm
Are the US made Duracells any better as far as leaking?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on October 26, 2017, 03:17:15 pm
NiMH has a lot of self discharge, don't you?

Not if you use Eneloops. I have left a set of Eneloops in a camera that has been sitting in a drawer for years, and yet the camera worked fine when I picked it up and switched it on after all that time.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Naguissa on October 26, 2017, 03:18:02 pm
I use NiMH with very low auto-discharge batteries (rechargable ones).

Problem solved.

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on October 26, 2017, 03:24:31 pm
Are the US made Duracells any better as far as leaking?

IMHO the alkaline cells from major brands with high power claims and a lot of marketing behind them are more prone to leaking. This is because there is a trade-off: if you change the formulation to get more power, you also increase the risk of leaking because the contents of the battery become more unstable and more volatile.

The lowest risk of leaking comes with minor brands that don't make extravagant claims, such as you might get from a dollar store. I have been buying and using Sunbeam brand cells from Dollar Tree (4/1$), and so far I have not seen one leak. They also have plenty of power for things like multimeters or clocks. Other low leak brands seem to be Japanese names like Panasonic, Sony, Fuji.

Also, ironically, the current design of super cheap zinc chloride super heavy duty cells seem very unlikely to leak. Ironically because these were the leaky ones decades ago.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 26, 2017, 03:26:31 pm
The trouble with rechargeable batteries is that they settle to about 1.25V, not enough for some applications, that's why I went to lithiums.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 26, 2017, 03:28:33 pm
Ian,
Have you had any sitting in clocks or other appliances for years? What's your experience?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: tooki on October 26, 2017, 04:35:53 pm
I’ve completely sworn off Duracell for years now: I’ve had more Duracells leak than all the others combined. I now swear by IKEA batteries: they’re cheap and they work great. (They used to say “made for ikea by Varta” on them, but that disappeared a few years ago, no idea who makes them now.)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: SeanB on October 26, 2017, 05:00:49 pm
Opened up a RS branded multimeter today to check the battery, which expired in 2013. Interesting no name cell there, aside from the RS branding and the small info about a patent number hidden under the terminals.

https://www.google.com/patents/US5691079 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5691079)

Quite an interesting read, and they do seem to last well.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: fourtytwo42 on October 26, 2017, 07:06:25 pm
Its 32C-35C for more than half the year where I live. I wonder if people in cooler climates have less trouble?
OMG what part of the UK is that ??  Here in chilly Norfolk it never goes above 28 and most of the time 22-24 in summer only!
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Naguissa on October 26, 2017, 09:02:28 pm
The trouble with rechargeable batteries is that they settle to about 1.25V, not enough for some applications, that's why I went to lithiums.
Any appliance that doesn't work with at minimum of 1.1 is batteriea eater. Most work until 0.9 or even 0.9. And with RC batteries... well, you can then recharge them....

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 26, 2017, 09:52:33 pm
The trouble with rechargeable batteries is that they settle to about 1.25V, not enough for some applications, that's why I went to lithiums.
Any appliance that doesn't work with at minimum of 1.1 is batteriea eater. Most work until 0.9 or even 0.9. And with RC batteries... well, you can then recharge them....

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk

I have several Atomic clocks that start losing signal at a little over 1.2 volts. Actually when you look at the discharge curves not much is left after 1.2 volts. I think Dave did a video on it somewhere.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on October 27, 2017, 12:34:27 am
I have several Atomic clocks that start losing signal at a little over 1.2 volts. Actually when you look at the discharge curves not much is left after 1.2 volts. I think Dave did a video on it somewhere.

I have a LaCrosse atomic clock that gives a low battery indication at about 1.4 volts. It is really annoying. I run it with lithiums, and I have been seriously thinking about making a mains powered battery eliminator for it so I don't have to keep replacing the battery.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: CatalinaWOW on October 27, 2017, 04:30:07 am

I have a LaCrosse atomic clock that gives a low battery indication at about 1.4 volts. It is really annoying. I run it with lithiums, and I have been seriously thinking about making a mains powered battery eliminator for it so I don't have to keep replacing the battery.

Depending on how they monitor voltage it might be easier to jigger the monitor circuit.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 11:24:55 am
I have several Atomic clocks that start losing signal at a little over 1.2 volts. Actually when you look at the discharge curves not much is left after 1.2 volts. I think Dave did a video on it somewhere.

I have a LaCrosse atomic clock that gives a low battery indication at about 1.4 volts. It is really annoying. I run it with lithiums, and I have been seriously thinking about making a mains powered battery eliminator for it so I don't have to keep replacing the battery.
Ian,
That's the same brand as mine. The Lithium batteries should last pretty long.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 11:30:11 am

I have a LaCrosse atomic clock that gives a low battery indication at about 1.4 volts. It is really annoying. I run it with lithiums, and I have been seriously thinking about making a mains powered battery eliminator for it so I don't have to keep replacing the battery.

Depending on how they monitor voltage it might be easier to jigger the monitor circuit.

Problem is they lose receiving strength when the voltage drops below a certain point, that's why they do it. If you live far away from WWV like I do you it's noticeable.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanMacdonald on October 27, 2017, 12:23:06 pm
Alkalines leaking used to be rare.

One advantage of NiMh is that the contents are not nearly as corrosive, so if they do leak it generally doesn't do any great harm.

Lithium don't leak often but the contents are very corrosive. Can even damage stainless steel.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 01:53:13 pm
Alkalines leaking used to be rare.

One advantage of NiMh is that the contents are not nearly as corrosive, so if they do leak it generally doesn't do any great harm.

Lithium don't leak often but the contents are very corrosive. Can even damage stainless steel.

I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

NiMH, 1,2 volts, Lithium 1.5 volts.

I just bought 50 AA Lithiums on Ebay, good through 2037 for $64. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: coppice on October 27, 2017, 03:09:24 pm
Alkalines leaking used to be rare.
Duracell's main advertising push in the early days of alkaline cells was not "more capacity than  carbon zinc". It was "doesn't leak like carbon zinc". Times have changed.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on October 27, 2017, 04:48:39 pm
I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

I think it's time to roll out the old saw:
Quote
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Just because you personally have never seen a Lithium battery leak doesn't mean that they don't.

I've seen several leaking CR2032s.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on October 27, 2017, 05:11:49 pm
Alkalines leaking used to be rare.

One advantage of NiMh is that the contents are not nearly as corrosive, so if they do leak it generally doesn't do any great harm.

Lithium don't leak often but the contents are very corrosive. Can even damage stainless steel.

I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

NiMH, 1,2 volts, Lithium 1.5 volts.

I just bought 50 AA Lithiums on Ebay, good through 2037 for $64. Problem solved.

Lithium 1.5v non rechargeable are quite different than Li-Ion or LiPo rechargeable used in EVs.

But I've seen Lithium leak as well .
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 05:12:06 pm
I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

I think it's time to roll out the old saw:
Quote
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Just because you personally have never seen a Lithium battery leak doesn't mean that they don't.

I've seen several leaking CR2032s.

That may be brand related. I've not had a leaking 2032 either. Got pics?

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 05:27:18 pm
Alkalines leaking used to be rare.

One advantage of NiMh is that the contents are not nearly as corrosive, so if they do leak it generally doesn't do any great harm.

Lithium don't leak often but the contents are very corrosive. Can even damage stainless steel.

I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

NiMH, 1,2 volts, Lithium 1.5 volts.

I just bought 50 AA Lithiums on Ebay, good through 2037 for $64. Problem solved.

Lithium 1.5v non rechargeable are quite different than Li-Ion or LiPo rechargeable used in EVs.

But I've seen Lithium leak as well .

So, you're using Alks and checking them every month? That's not for me.

I just bought 50 lithiums, if they leak I'll post the pics. Right now I'll go by the Energizer data sheet which seems to be stronger for Lithiums over Alks.

At 3500 maH and $1.28 a piece I'll take my chances, can't be any worse than Duracell which I figure 80 to 90% have leaked.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on October 27, 2017, 07:15:38 pm
Thats not what I said.

I'm saying that just because EV Lithium ION haven't leaked doesn't mean a completely different type of lithium battery won't leak.

I don't have any thing left that has to have 1.5V anyway, anything I have runs on NiMH just fine, and I've had those leak too.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 09:22:14 pm
Thats not what I said.

I'm saying that just because EV Lithium ION haven't leaked doesn't mean a completely different type of lithium battery won't leak.

I don't have any thing left that has to have 1.5V anyway, anything I have runs on NiMH just fine, and I've had those leak too.

It also doesn't mean they will. I like half full cups. You're using NiMH and you know they leak so what's your solution? Check your batteries often? Again, I don't want to do that, I'm old I forget!

I still have a better chance with a battery that doesn't gas and I still have several things that run 1.5V. Is anyone sure they will leak? Pics?

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on October 27, 2017, 10:14:39 pm
Yes, we are sure they will leak, I as other said have seen them leak.

I simply have a todo spreadsheet that reminds me to check things each year.  Batteries, first aid stuff, etc
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 27, 2017, 10:45:55 pm
Yes, we are sure they will leak, I as other said have seen them leak.

I simply have a todo spreadsheet that reminds me to check things each year.  Batteries, first aid stuff, etc

That's anecdotal. Which brands, which batteries? Energizer lithiums? Pics?

You put all your batteries in at the same time?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on October 27, 2017, 11:22:51 pm
That may be brand related. I've not had a leaking 2032 either. Got pics?

I still have a better chance with a battery that doesn't gas and I still have several things that run 1.5V. Is anyone sure they will leak? Pics?

That's anecdotal. Which brands, which batteries? Energizer lithiums? Pics?

You seem to have an unnatural obsession with pictures. What's up? Do you think we're all bearded hipsters who photograph every flat white? Most people who find a leaking battery don't think "I must photograph this for posterity or anybody who might distrust my memory of it" they think "Yuck!" and then bin the battery and get on with cleaning out the battery compartment.

Or do you just have a (very) strange fetish for leaking battery photographs?  I haven't got any, but I might be able to manage a photo of a couple of AAs strapped into a custom made leather battery holster - that do? :)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 28, 2017, 12:33:01 am
That may be brand related. I've not had a leaking 2032 either. Got pics?

I still have a better chance with a battery that doesn't gas and I still have several things that run 1.5V. Is anyone sure they will leak? Pics?

That's anecdotal. Which brands, which batteries? Energizer lithiums? Pics?

You seem to have an unnatural obsession with pictures. What's up? Do you think we're all bearded hipsters who photograph every flat white? Most people who find a leaking battery don't think "I must photograph this for posterity or anybody who might distrust my memory of it" they think "Yuck!" and then bin the battery and get on with cleaning out the battery compartment.

Or do you just have a (very) strange fetish for leaking battery photographs?  I haven't got any, but I might be able to manage a photo of a couple of AAs strapped into a custom made leather battery holster - that do? :)

I photographed them for credit from Duracell. If I have a piece of damaged equipment from a battery I do photograph it and send it to the manifacturer, yes.

No thanks on the photos, that won't help with my leaking battery problem. Why do you ask, have photos of batteries strapped to a leather holster fetish? Send them to young ladies over the internet, do you?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Cerebus on October 28, 2017, 01:03:07 am
No thanks on the photos, that won't help with my leaking battery problem. Why do you ask, have photos of batteries strapped to a leather holster fetish? Send them to young ladies over the internet, do you?

No, I'm just an obliging chap. I happen to have some batteries in a leather holster, and if one had a battery fetish I'm sure leather would make it better - leather seems to be a de rigueur adjunct to most fetishes.  If it'd been good for you, it wouldn't have hurt me to take a snap or two. As AvE says, "I don't judge". And if someone is going to have a battery fetish, I somehow suspect it's not likely to be young ladies on the internet, more likely something in the shape of a pimply male physics undergrad.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on October 28, 2017, 01:22:33 am
I'd be very wary of males with battery fetishes.  That's rapidly moving into NSFW territory and possible ER visits for battery extraction, with a risk of serious injuries or even death due to electrolysis induced tissue necrosis. 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: CatalinaWOW on October 28, 2017, 03:51:00 am
I think I am now learning things I didn't want to know.  About batteries and many other things.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on October 28, 2017, 12:43:51 pm
I did a search for images of leaking lithium batteries and I didn't see any AA energizers in the pics so maybe they hold up. I imagine if you abuse them you might have problems, Energizer does mention this.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: labjr on December 09, 2018, 12:30:15 am
I take batteries out of anything valuable, if I'm not going to be using it for a while. My Fluke non-contact voltage detector was ruined by leaky batteries. I probably used it once a year. So I take the batteries out until I need to use it. Especially if they don't make the device any longer.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: @rt on December 09, 2018, 03:18:38 pm
I’ve had a supermarket purchased Duracell AA alkaline leak in a device this year, which corroded the terminal enough to prevent it working at all.
Thankfully it was able to be repaired with a little scraping.

Also, the first batch of those Energizer eco friendly batteries had one that just got hot with no explanation.
That was also an AA in series with a number of them. I won’t use those again.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 10, 2018, 06:51:49 am
I brought a lot of Duracell batteries in the past and kept most of them in storage and some started to leak and some were flat well before their expiry date. I got them from the local supermarket. I don't buy them anymore.

I use Industrial Duracell's and I have been buying them for torches and lights and never had one leak before.
Maybe they are better sealed.

I prefer using NiMH round cells for the most important things that use up more power.

I have banks of Ansmann batteries but they're not 2850mah as advertised and I knew that when I brought them. I don't know why they bother putting that figure on it. When I got them new six years ago they ranged between 2400 to 2500 on charge and discharge.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 13, 2018, 08:09:16 pm
I've had so many alkaline batteries leak that I've lost count. I use NiMH in everything now, haven't had one leak yet. The only Nixx batteries I've ever seen leak were >30 years old.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 13, 2018, 08:20:23 pm
Isn't the voltage lower in hydroxides?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 13, 2018, 08:47:09 pm
Nickel based rechargeables have a slightly lower cell voltage but it's not an issue in most applications.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on December 13, 2018, 09:03:52 pm
Isn't the voltage lower in hydroxides?
Nominal voltage alkalines: ~1.5V
Nominal voltage NiMH: ~1.2V
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 13, 2018, 11:39:34 pm
I run uC's below their specified voltage. I can get away with 1.5v on an Atmel chip but 1.2 gets a little tricky.
What I do when voltage level isn't an issue is to run rechargeable batts like the Eneloops which I find excellent.

I'm using Lithium AA's now and they seem to be good so far.

Rob 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 13, 2018, 11:59:38 pm
I've never had a lithium leak. Not once! EVs are full of them, did you ever hear about them leaking? Not me, my EV has never had a leaking Lithium. Panasonic 18650's, never had a leak.

I think it's time to roll out the old saw:
Quote
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Just because you personally have never seen a Lithium battery leak doesn't mean that they don't.

I've seen several leaking CR2032s.

That may be brand related. I've not had a leaking 2032 either. Got pics?

I came across a Mac IIfx that was completely destroyed by a leaking lithium PRAM battery. It ate some traces right off the motherboard and badly rusted the metal parts of the chassis, it was a near total loss.

I've also had a leaking lithium coin cell a bit larger than a CR2032 on a Mortal Kombat arcade board which leaked and rotted contacts off several IC sockets.

Oh and I've had a CR123 leak.

Lithium batteries are less leak prone than typical alkalines but they certainly can and occasionally do leak. I suspect some chemistries are far more leak prone than others.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 14, 2018, 12:03:17 am
Oh I also had an energizer lithium AA leak after I put it in a cheap solar pathway light to see what would happen. I'm not sure that counts though, the battery clearly said not to recharge it.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 14, 2018, 03:05:22 am
There was one time when I had alkaline leak in a low power led light about 6 years ago. I put in new Duracell I can't remember which one but I paid for the "best". I think it switched on in the bag and went flat or I forgot to turn it off. A couple days later when I went to use it it wouldn't turn on so took the batteries out they all leaked.

I took home, took it apart to spray with alcohol and scrape off any corrosion I can find.
One of the wire was corroded to the terminals and the terminals so I cleaned it out and replaced the wire but I couldn't find any other damage on the led board.

I put in some of the Ansmanns batteries and it worked, left it for a few days and it was fine no leaking.
 
A couple of weeks later I took it with me and the light wouldn't turn on. Okay no problem they have gone flat and I'll swap them over with some I charged up, I took them out and the batteries were corroded and I opened the light and the board and everything inside was corroded.

The alkaline was still in there despite spraying it with alcohol and scraping it many times and it ruined the four rechargeables inside and they were expensive at the time.

It was a blue 72 led lamp that I got from Sainsbury's similar to the Rolson 72 LED Inspection lamp.


I should have known better to put cheap alkalines in to see if it would continue to corrode.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 14, 2018, 04:26:28 am
I took home, took it apart to spray with alcohol and scrape off any corrosion I can find.

I opened the light and the board and everything inside was corroded.

The alkaline was still in there despite spraying it with alcohol and scraping it many times

Maybe you have learned from experience, but this is not the right way to clean leaky battery damage. You need to use the best universal solvent--water--and lots of it. You need to rinse with copious amounts of distilled water. Submerge the board, scrub it with a soft brush, and rinse with more running water. After rinsing, leave it to dry in the open air in a warm place for several days. Where to avoid using water is in the light assembly and reflector. But assuming you can disassemble the light and remove the board, all the disassembled pieces should get the thorough wash treatment.

Cleaning anything is like cleaning clothes. You need to get the contamination into solution and then remove the contamination from the scene by rinsing it away.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: floobydust on December 14, 2018, 05:48:36 am
Isopropyl alcohol is not very good for cleaning alkaline battery corrosion. You have to neutralize the white potassium carbonate with an acid. I use a q-tip and vinegar to clean that up, then a rinse with water or alcohol.

Asphalt (bitumen) was originally used as the seal on AA and AAA batteries. It survived the chemicals.
I guess it was expensive or environmentally unfriendly. Kodak AA's used a hard epoxy glue seal and that worked too.
Whatever Duracell uses now is total garbage, they all leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 05:50:48 am
Oh I also had an energizer lithium AA leak after I put it in a cheap solar pathway light to see what would happen. I'm not sure that counts though, the battery clearly said not to recharge it.

But they are not ionic, right? As long as they don't eat copper trace, they are far less troublesome.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 14, 2018, 06:17:33 am
Oh I also had an energizer lithium AA leak after I put it in a cheap solar pathway light to see what would happen. I'm not sure that counts though, the battery clearly said not to recharge it.

But they are not ionic, right? As long as they don't eat copper trace, they are far less troublesome.

Honestly I don't know, I only mentioned that they can leak, it may well not be as corrosive.

The 3V lithium batteries used in the old Macs sure are corrosive though, I've never seen battery leakage that corrodes like those do. Rots out all the metal it touches and the vapors rust everything else.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 06:49:56 am
Honestly I don't know, I only mentioned that they can leak, it may well not be as corrosive.

The 3V lithium batteries used in the old Macs sure are corrosive though, I've never seen battery leakage that corrodes like those do. Rots out all the metal it touches and the vapors rust everything else.

CR batteries use lithium salt dissolved in a blend of organic solvents. FR batteries use pure organic electrolyte.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 14, 2018, 09:22:40 am
But they are not ionic, right? As long as they don't eat copper trace, they are far less troublesome.

They sure are ionic. All chemical cells contain electrolyte, and all electrolytes are ionic by definition. However some electrolytes are more corrosive than others. In the case of lithium cells there is very little electrolyte present and it is absorbed in some kind of separator material so there is not really very much liquid to leak. This is why lithium cells are safe from a leaking point of view.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: helius on December 14, 2018, 11:24:01 am
Some computers used CR or BR type cells for memory retention, others used LiSOCl2. The latter contain highly corrosive liquids (the cathode of the reaction is a liquid, thionyl chloride).

Some electrolytes are corrosion inhibitors:
"LiBF4 appears to have by far the lowest corrosion rate. There is little difference in the amount corroded... stored for 40 hours and 140 hours." (https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1566770874)
"Depression of corrosion... was attributed to the formation of a stable passive layer on the surface." (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013468603009307)
"... the LiBF4 is the most effective for preventing the corrosion." (https://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/203/pdfs/0186.pdf)

All chemical cells contain electrolyte, and all electrolytes are ionic by definition.
That is true, but not all chemicals added to a battery formula to act as electrolytes are ionic—in the case of lithium ion batteries, the electrolytes are aprotic. It is only by solvating lithium ions that they become ionic complexes.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 14, 2018, 11:45:41 am
Isn't the voltage lower in hydroxides?
It's around 1.45V freshly charged. Then it drops to around 1.3V after some time (without external discharging). But generally this is not issue. It's just that non rechargeable batteries have steeper discharge curve. Voltage when most of the energy is spent is around the same for both types. So unless device is a garbage which can no longer work while there still is a lot of energy left in the battery, there won't be any issue using NiMH.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 14, 2018, 03:14:59 pm
It's not about how much energy is in the battery, it's about the working voltage of the circuit. I've tested ATTINY12V's down to 1.2 volts but ATTINY5's cut out below 1.5v. So I can design a single battery app that uses under 100uA and it will run fine on an Alk but not on a NiMH using 12V's and even get away with ATTINY5's in some apps.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 14, 2018, 04:18:31 pm
It's not about how much energy is in the battery, it's about the working voltage of the circuit. I've tested ATTINY12V's down to 1.2 volts but ATTINY5's cut out below 1.5v. So I can design a single battery app that uses under 100uA and it will run fine on an Alk but not on a NiMH using 12V's and even get away with ATTINY5's in some apps.
It's about you should not use attiny directly powered from a single cell to begin with. If it cuts off at 1.2V, your design is a piece of crap. If you look at discharge curves, NiMH actually stays above 1.2V for more time than alkaline, especially at higher loads.
Edit: and using them below 1.8V is not up to spec at all. It may cause problems, especially with using EEPROM.
For such use there exist adequate MCUs like this https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Silicon-Labs/C8051F921-G-GM?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtjWZqwEMjY%2f787M7OqHS%2f9yWzbyePZbJY%3d (https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Silicon-Labs/C8051F921-G-GM?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtjWZqwEMjY%2f787M7OqHS%2f9yWzbyePZbJY%3d)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 14, 2018, 06:33:43 pm
I run the designs at 1.55 volts, the voltage of Alks, not at 1.2 volts, that's why I don't use NiMH. I can run down to 1.2v to test my overhead but 1.55v is where my chips work with no problems.

But I suggest you don't do it because it seems to make you angry or something that I actually find quite funny.

And the 32 pin chip you linked cost multiple times more than a TINY with 8 pins or SOT23-6 with 6 pins which runs in the picoamps when in sleep mode and I can program in AVR assembly. I also have to use an oven to put your chip on a board which makes prototyping a pain.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 06:44:38 pm
But I suggest you don't do it because it seems to make you angry or something that I actually find quite funny.

FFS, running a chip outside its specified operating condition without doing extensive testing and qualification is plain stupid.
There are chips designed for single battery operation. Get one of those.
If your design can be choked on a few tens of bucks cents on MCU, then your design is already dead.
In 2018, either get your design differentiates from competitors enough to get a high profit margin, or get killed by the Chinese products of similar function.
If a product takes longer to design and market than it takes to engineer, then you bet the Chinese has better offerings.

And FYI, those lithium batteries are only a bit higher than alkaline ones, at ~1.6V. That's still outside your minimum range.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 14, 2018, 07:26:58 pm
I think you're absolutely right and I'm never going to do it again......... feel better? I certainly do.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 14, 2018, 08:09:32 pm
I run the designs at 1.55 volts, the voltage of Alks, not at 1.2 volts, that's why I don't use NiMH. I can run down to 1.2v to test my overhead but 1.55v is where my chips work with no problems.

The open circuit voltage of a brand new, freshly manufactured alkaline cell is about 1.55 V. But how long do you think it remains that way? It doesn't remain there for very long.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

The voltage remains above 1.5 V for about 2% of the service life of the battery. So if you design something that relies on an alkaline battery having a voltage above 1.5 V your design isn't going to work.

Nominal voltage alkalines: ~1.5V
Nominal voltage NiMH: ~1.2V

The "nominal" voltage of a battery is exactly what the word says,  the "named voltage" printed on the side. Dictionary definition: "nominal" = "in name only". A nominal value is not the same as the actual value.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 14, 2018, 08:32:22 pm
And the 32 pin chip you linked cost multiple times more than a TINY with 8 pins or SOT23-6 with 6 pins which runs in the picoamps when in sleep mode and I can program in AVR assembly. I also have to use an oven to put your chip on a board which makes prototyping a pain.
It costs 20-30% more than attiny12V and is way more capable chip. 24 pin QFN variant is only a little bit larger than SOT23-6.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 14, 2018, 09:11:29 pm
It depends on the current. At under 100 picoamps it's going to stay around 1.5 volts a long time.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 14, 2018, 09:22:48 pm
I'm using an ATTINY5 at 34 cents vs $1.62 (Mouser). Why would I want to pay more for a chip than I need it to do? Your chip is a pain to prototype and program. I have to keep the chips in sealed bags so I can heat oven them without damage. I can mount an SOT23-6 on a simple adapter and program it on a simple interface. If I want larger chips I still us AVR's they're my favorite chips, I have assembly down pat and I can do anything I want on them. I stock many AVR chips and it makes life easier.

 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 14, 2018, 11:18:06 pm
It depends on the current. At under 100 picoamps it's going to stay around 1.5 volts a long time.
100 picoamps is when MCU is shut down and does nothing, and actually that current is a bit higher than 100pA at room temperature. As you wasting 98% of the battery anyway, you could just use 2 smaller batteries in series and use full amount of their capacity. Even single 3V CR2032 would last longer than 2% of AA alkaline. Not to say it would be reliable design. Not something that works only with lucky draw in MCU die lottery and in narrow temperature range.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2018, 12:28:28 am
That's wrong:
First the active supply current of the uC is under 10uA, on interrupt (31uS on state for uC in my present design) it changes state and then goes back to sleep. The total current of the circuit is the 31uS acitive current period and the remaining current at <60pA for the rest of the remaining time. IF the uC only needs to wake up on interrupt every 10 minutes for 31uS then the current is basically 60pA.

Two: AND since I am running the uC at 1.5v both the active current and the power off sleep state are lower. (hint, I can do this because I'm using a very low frequency oscillator and the lower the freq the lower the uC operating current and the lower the operating voltage it's capable of.)

Three: No, that's wrong again (see 2), when you raise the operating voltage you raise the operating current in all uC states. At 3v the active and sleep current is about twice as high.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 15, 2018, 12:44:17 am
I run the designs at 1.55 volts, the voltage of Alks, not at 1.2 volts, that's why I don't use NiMH. I can run down to 1.2v to test my overhead but 1.55v is where my chips work with no problems.

The open circuit voltage of a brand new, freshly manufactured alkaline cell is about 1.55 V. But how long do you think it remains that way? It doesn't remain there for very long.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

The voltage remains above 1.5 V for about 2% of the service life of the battery. So if you design something that relies on an alkaline battery having a voltage above 1.5 V your design isn't going to work.


Maybe we finally found a use for the Batteriser  :-DD


Seriously though, that's a piss-poor design if it relies on the higher terminal voltage of an alkaline cell and won't work well with NiMH. Maybe for a quick hobby hack that's fine but there's no excuse for a commercial product to have such limitations these days, it's so easy to avoid them.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2018, 12:57:29 am
You're absolutely right! I'll never do it again, feel better? I certainly do.

Is a common quartz wall clock a "commercial design"? See how long it runs on a NiMH battery.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2018, 01:05:06 am
No Ian, I've tested the uC's down to 1.2 volts before they cut out. So an Alk at 1.45 volts will run my circuit. Again, the lower the operating frequency the lower operating voltage of the circuit AND the lower the current.

But, hey, don't do it, I couldn't care less.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on December 15, 2018, 01:07:41 am
Nominal voltage alkalines: ~1.5V
Nominal voltage NiMH: ~1.2V

The "nominal" voltage of a battery is exactly what the word says,  the "named voltage" printed on the side. Dictionary definition: "nominal" = "in name only". A nominal value is not the same as the actual value.

Words have many meanings. The definition I used here is Merriam Webster 3B (see attachment); relating to theoretical size, or approximate, which is what is typically used in engineering. In my example above I used the symbol for approximate (~), which seems to fit this definition and situation. The actual alkaline voltage can range from ~1.6V down to 0.8V (or 0.0V ;D).

In this case, "nominal" meaning "named voltage", or "theoretical voltage" seem to be both right, even though the battery voltage can vary greatly. Not a big deal.

What surprised me recently is that the Energizer Ultimate Lithium L91 battery spec says it has a nominal voltage of 1.5 Volts, but the application manual says the voltage can range from 1.74V to 1.83V.  (I learned this from this thread. :-+)

This caused a problem for me recently. I have several wireless thermometers and weather stations. The manuals warns against using lithium batteries because they have "to much power" (bad description from the manual writer). This didn't make any sense to me because the thermometers have very low power consumption. The thermometers worked good with the lithium batteries, until recently when I got a new thermometer that would not work with lithium batteries, but worked with alkaline batteries. The higher voltage of the lithiums (1.8V) is too high for the circuitry in that thermometer.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: floobydust on December 15, 2018, 01:38:33 am
I have to use lithium batteries in wireless thermometer/weather station transmitters.
It gets too cold during a Canadian winter, alkaline batteries freeze up.

Some wireless transmitters I have killed using low internal resistance batteries or a bench power supply.
I find the fast rise time dV/dt causes the IC to latch up. I had to add a 47R series resistor to stop it.
This might be "too much power".
The voltage didn't matter, I think it's all 3.3V IC's anyhow.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 15, 2018, 09:38:36 pm
Isopropyl alcohol is not very good for cleaning alkaline battery corrosion. You have to neutralize the white potassium carbonate with an acid. I use a q-tip and vinegar to clean that up, then a rinse with water or alcohol.

Asphalt (bitumen) was originally used as the seal on AA and AAA batteries. It survived the chemicals.
I guess it was expensive or environmentally unfriendly. Kodak AA's used a hard epoxy glue seal and that worked too.
Whatever Duracell uses now is total garbage, they all leak.

Quote
I guess it was expensive or environmentally unfriendly. Kodak AA's used a hard epoxy glue seal and that worked too.
Whatever Duracell uses now is total garbage, they all leak.

So Duracells now are not very environmentally friendly for your electronics as the seals they put on them allow the chemicals to escape and they call it "Duralock" whatever it is. The "lock" in there gives it a new definition of what it does.

I took home, took it apart to spray with alcohol and scrape off any corrosion I can find.

I opened the light and the board and everything inside was corroded.

The alkaline was still in there despite spraying it with alcohol and scraping it many times

Maybe you have learned from experience, but this is not the right way to clean leaky battery damage. You need to use the best universal solvent--water--and lots of it. You need to rinse with copious amounts of distilled water. Submerge the board, scrub it with a soft brush, and rinse with more running water. After rinsing, leave it to dry in the open air in a warm place for several days. Where to avoid using water is in the light assembly and reflector. But assuming you can disassemble the light and remove the board, all the disassembled pieces should get the thorough wash treatment.

Cleaning anything is like cleaning clothes. You need to get the contamination into solution and then remove the contamination from the scene by rinsing it away.

I was given a TI-92 to keep due leaking batteries.

It is still in out in an anti static bag somewhere and thanks to you I won't see it get worse and I might be able to get it working again.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: helius on December 15, 2018, 10:01:59 pm
The part most often affected by leaking electrolyte is the battery contacts. But apart from basically generic ones like the 9V snaps with attached wires, the replacements need to be the proper size and shape to fit the case moldings. Has anyone compiled a list of battery contact profiles and sources?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2018, 10:52:08 pm
The part most often affected by leaking electrolyte is the battery contacts. But apart from basically generic ones like the 9V snaps with attached wires, the replacements need to be the proper size and shape to fit the case moldings. Has anyone compiled a list of battery contact profiles and sources?

It may be to difficult, things like flashlights use proprietary contacts - each manufacturer has his own idea. Sometimes I get away with replacing the whole battery holder or taking contacts out of holders and modding them to fit radios, etc.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 15, 2018, 11:33:00 pm

I'm to stingy to buy the big name brands so I can't say anything about them but the cheap ALDI alkalines (20 cent per cell) hold up quite well.

I've never had one leak on me. Does anyone know who's the manufacturer of them? Though it's quite cold here compared to your place, maybe that's the reason for it  ;D




Not so here, the ALDI blue alkaline batteries leak and go weird consistently, whether used or not, regardless of batch or purchase dates.

AA are bad news and circuit track eaters,

the AAA and C size I have been lucky so far...

The 9 volt batteries will cause random trip havoc in smoke detectors and /or leak 6 months after purchase. They don't like summer weather inside air conditioned premises  ???
Their shelf life is zero too, a total leaked corrosion mess sitting in a sealed packet after one year or so.

The green AA rechargeables are hit and miss too. 50% of them will just drop to zero voltage after a few cycles and won't charge back up no matter what the revival routine applied.  :horse:


Whilst I am an avid ALDI shopper  :-+  I have been meaning to advise them about this at first opportunity,

it's happened too many times over a 5 year period to be coincidence, I've had less to no drama with other cheap and pricey batteries.

the ALDI blue AA alkalines cost me an $80 cable checker, they ate the entire board whilst the unit worked fine   :(

To be fair, they are good for one day 'use and bin' for camera flashes and torches that are used till flat.
Forget them inside the battery compartment at your peril   :scared:  :rant: :-[

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 16, 2018, 12:21:00 am
They have been selling 8 Panasonic batteries for £2 and not the crapp "special power" ones.

I can't remember if I got them from from Lidl or Aldi.

I am testing them out and keeping them out to see if they will leak after a year.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 16, 2018, 01:19:17 am
They have been selling 8 Panasonic batteries for £2 and not the crapp "special power" ones.

I can't remember if I got them from from Lidl or Aldi.

I am testing them out and keeping them out to see if they will leak after a year.

Dollar Tree here is selling the Panasonic alkalines at 2/1$ so 8/£1.67 (ex. VAT) is way better value.

You could also check out Poundland, they have Kodak alkalines at an even better price (https://www.poundland.co.uk/kodak-aa-alkaline-batteries-6-pack) (6/83p ex. VAT).

My empirical experience is that the lower the cost, the least likely to leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 16, 2018, 01:44:03 am
I'll buy a pack and do some tests and comparisons.

I wouldn't discharge them on my good battery chargers just incase they leak but I have got a cheap little portable ZKE battery discharger.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 16, 2018, 04:42:43 am
During a recent cleanup I discovered that the batteries were still installed in one of  my original and precious Maglites, I had left the torch in one of my old hunting backpacks and unfortunately the Digitor batteries had corroded to the extent where they could not be easily removed. I put some tape and then rubber sheet around the body so as not to completely wreck the anodised finish and then chucked it up in the lathe. I drilled a small hole for a removal screw for the first battery which worked out fine helped with a light spray of lubricant. The second and deeper battery was really stuck so I piloted with a small drill bit and then whilst drilling with a larger bit found that the centre pin which resembled a rivet stem had been forced by the drill bit through the front plastic lamp holder assembly of the torch wrecking it completely.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=597769;image)


On another battery subject, I recently discovered that certain estate agents and property managers engage and promote the services of particular companies who then attend rented properties just to test and replace the batteries in smoke detectors, and they charge an absolute fortune for the service. Some of these companies use name brand and reputable batteries and properly label them with the replacement date whereas some other mobs use their own branded rubbish and don’t even bother to label them with a date. I won’t name names and have no clue what these blue batteries are yet the other previous company were using the orange Duracell Procells which aren’t a bad battery really, generic or no name brand batteries are a fucking curse in my opinion and if you don’t know what they are then don’t use them.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=597775;image)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 16, 2018, 05:02:30 am
whilst drilling with a larger bit found that the centre pin which resembled a rivet stem had been forced by the drill bit through the front plastic lamp holder assembly of the torch wrecking it completely.

Hmm. Why didn't you remove the lamp assembly and switch assembly from the front of the torch before trying to remove the batteries? Then you could push the batteries out with a dowel or other kind of rod.

Quote
I won’t name names and have no clue what these blue batteries are yet the other previous company were using the orange Duracell Procells which aren’t a bad battery really, generic or no name brand batteries are a fucking curse in my opinion and if you don’t know what they are then don’t use them.

It's usual to put 9 V lithium batteries in smoke detectors. Those blue ones are zinc chloride batteries, not even alkalines. Whoever is installing those is really cheaping out on the contract. In the UK I think the fire brigade will replace smoke alarm batteries for free if you ask them to do a safety inspection.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 16, 2018, 05:18:37 am
Hmm. Why didn't you remove the lamp assembly and switch assembly from the front of the torch before trying to remove the batteries? Then you could push the batteries out with a dowel or other kind of rod.

It's usual to put 9 V lithium batteries in smoke detectors. Those blue ones are zinc chloride batteries, not even alkalines. Whoever is installing those is really cheaping out on the contract. In the UK I think the fire brigade will replace smoke alarm batteries for free if you ask them to do a safety inspection.

The plastic lamp holder on these early Maglites are first installed from the battery entrance end and it wouldn't budge at all when pushed with a dowel from the front, believe me I really wanted to save this torch as it was my first ever one, all the bits are still in the bin but I think it's pretty well buggered.   :(

Changing out the smoke detector batteries and testing them with smoke in a can is a bit of a scam in my view and no doubt the agent gets a commission or charges extra for providing that service, they will be getting an earful for this and probably didn't expect that I would bother inspecting the work.   >:(
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 16, 2018, 06:46:07 am
My little brother used to be the maintenance guy at a retirement home and they were required to replace all of the smoke alarm batteries annually despite the fact that these were mains powered alarms with a battery backup. On two occasions he gave me a box of ~400 nearly new 9V batteries they would have had to pay to dispose of. I used them in everything I could, gave a bunch of them away, eventually they started going bad from sitting around so I started connecting dozens of them in series and drawing arcs, that was slightly scary. I also lit some lamps, it was weird to see ordinary 120 and 240V incandescent lamps running off 9V alkaline batteries.

Anyway if you need 9V batteries one of those smoke alarm maintenance companies mentioned above or a retirement home may be worth asking.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: SeanB on December 16, 2018, 10:55:28 am
The blue batteries peel off the metal shell and you will see the original brand there. The manufacturer simply takes the sheets of metal printed plate and turns them around and prints again for the special orders, saves having to keep the sheets in stock for the odd order, just make a plate, run through the press with already done metal sheet and run through the line till you have the right number of sheets to fill the order, then back to the normal line of work batteries.

I have found known name brand metalwork in those cheap specials, run on the same line and with the same cells inside. Generally it will be Energiser or Ever Ready as the actual cell inside
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: 3roomlab on December 16, 2018, 11:45:22 am
do NiMh leak?

I have  not seen 1, but maybe someone out there has used more seen some NiMh (or even NiCd?) mishaps?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on December 16, 2018, 12:19:11 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common, and destroyed many motherboards from the 486 and early Pentium era that had a rechargeable battery for the CMOS/clock backup directly soldered to the motherboard.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 16, 2018, 04:24:09 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common, and destroyed many motherboards from the 486 and early Pentium era that had a rechargeable battery for the CMOS/clock backup directly soldered to the motherboard.

However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak. They are hermetically sealed inside their case and designed to withstand high internal pressures without venting. The steel case is also inert to the electrolyte so it does not corrode away. Modern NiMH cells have a service life of hundreds of recharge cycles and many years of use.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: NiHaoMike on December 16, 2018, 04:46:37 pm
NiCd and NiMH batteries can leak, especially the cheap ones, but far less often than even name brand alkalines.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on December 16, 2018, 05:20:06 pm
I've also seen many AA NiCd cells that have developed bad seals with age and use (in fact most of the ones I owned failed by leakage, and most NiCd tagged AA cells or packs of the same I replaced in repair jobs showed signs of leakage).  Normally you only get a small leak and they out-gas, dry up and fail Hi-Z without significant electrolyte leakage (i.e. enough to damage nearby PCBs), although there will typically be some signs of leakage e.g. crystalline 'fur'  at the edge of the shrink-wrap jacket.  I didn't go for NIMH batteries to the same extent, so haven't seen enough leaky one to come to any conclusions on the reliability of their seals.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 16, 2018, 05:29:10 pm
I've seen NiCd cells leak numerous times, the GE DataSentry batteries are notorious for leaking on certain classic arcade boards. They were at least 20 years old when they started leaking in large numbers though, I can forgive that. When new batteries are leaking while still in their package before the expiration date as I have had a number of Duracells do that is a different story.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 17, 2018, 01:54:04 am
All I can add after losing some gear to bad 'good batteries' is to keep a date checklist on all equipment with batteries.
6 months or 12 months has passed, used or not, and they look and perform like new? 2 years?!!  get them out of there NOW!!!   :scared:

Or, jerry rig an external plastic battery supply with internal connections that can be reversed anytime

or just take the batteries out of equipment that you don't use that often, it's less of a hassle than blowing cash on a battery trashed item,
or the mega hassle of a bad news battery cleanup and repair  :horse: 

I don't trust rechargeable batteries either, just one of them with continence issues will do the vile deed on your gear just as well as alkalines

oh yeah, and beware of audiophool grade batteries like lithiums and the like, and the marketing BS and price tag that goes with them. 

I just tossed out 4 sealed unused twin packs supplied with a DSLR camera, a top brand name battery brand btw that were sitting in a dry box for almost 4 - 5 years.
What a sight, so much for saving them for a rainy day or use as demos if selling the camera.    :palm:


FWIW: Multimeters that take a 9 volt battery in a separate compartment at the bottom and or away from the main board to me are keepers, regardless of their specs, be it Fluke, Jaycar, whatever...
Worst case battery jizz is a straightforward mop up and a generic 9 volt plug lead = $1 ? soldered in,
if the corroded connectors are welded to the battery or just too crusty beyond saving.

A skeptical observer might suspect some equipment and battery companies with mutual shareholdings, may have a good thing going to turn over easy guaranteed dollars...   >:D

Nah, can't happen  ;)

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on December 17, 2018, 02:27:32 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common, and destroyed many motherboards from the 486 and early Pentium era that had a rechargeable battery for the CMOS/clock backup directly soldered to the motherboard.

However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak. They are hermetically sealed inside their case and designed to withstand high internal pressures without venting. The steel case is also inert to the electrolyte so it does not corrode away. Modern NiMH cells have a service life of hundreds of recharge cycles and many years of use.

I have had a couple NiMH leak, one was an off brand and one was a radioshack.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 02:54:14 pm
I have had about 25 Duracell NiMH for years and also Sanyo Eneloops. None of them have ever leaked. Again, my only issue is the lower voltage which doesn't run many things that Alks run.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 04:56:17 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common, and destroyed many motherboards from the 486 and early Pentium era that had a rechargeable battery for the CMOS/clock backup directly soldered to the motherboard.

However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak. They are hermetically sealed inside their case and designed to withstand high internal pressures without venting. The steel case is also inert to the electrolyte so it does not corrode away. Modern NiMH cells have a service life of hundreds of recharge cycles and many years of use.

That's the problem, they do leak and a lot. Maybe NiMH don't leak much but Alks do.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: cdev on December 17, 2018, 05:14:58 pm
Is the only solution going around, finding all battery powered equipment and removing them, storing everything without any batteries in them and removing the batteries after one is finished using them?

That really is a pain in the butt.  It seems to me that some brands of batteries used to last forever without leaking.  What happened?

 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 05:21:44 pm
I think they kept pushing the envelope as to how much you can extract from an AAA or AA battery. Kind of a race to the top scenario. Now we're struck with leaking batteries.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 17, 2018, 05:30:59 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common

However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak.

That's the problem, they do leak and a lot. Maybe NiMH don't leak much but Alks do.

Make your mind up, please? NiMH cells don't leak much, or they leak a lot?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: helius on December 17, 2018, 05:44:50 pm
Make your mind up, please? NiMH cells don't leak much, or they leak a lot?
I can see your comment being potentially ambiguous, especially if the context wasn't clear.
However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak.
"Typical" AA and AAA cells would be alkalines, as they are by far the most common.
"Typical [NiMH] AA and AAA cells" are a much smaller category.

This is called a contextomy and is a common way of imputing things that someone did not say.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 17, 2018, 06:01:52 pm
NiMH maybe unreliable at times but with a good couple chargers nearby, so you can cycle them, a bank of good batteries and keeping track of the capacity it can be worth it in the end if you use them a lot. I am not so dependent on going out and buying them.

I have got two Conrad Voltcraft CM2020 chargers, one that I brought in 2006 and I had a replace the fan in that one a couple of years ago and one in 2012.

I had a lot 20 -30 of AA Energizers I think 2500mah which worked for six years.
They were okay in rated capacity but they don't hold charge for more than a couple of weeks.

In late 2012 I put them aside and brought a lot of Ansmann and most of them still are okay.
They last for more than month in mouse and keyboards and a couple of days in my Philips HD1505 headphones.

I have a couple of SKY RC MC-3000 to charge 8x 18650 Lithium cells.


The chargers seem to differ in charging NiMH round cells.

The CM2020 adjusts the current all the time and according to voltage at whether it is set at 1 or 2 amps and they never get hot. They don't charge constantly at 1 or 2 amps. It appears to increase and decrease up to the charge rate set.

The MC 3000 puts in a fixed charge current that you set and they get very hot over 1a.
The default is 700mah and it gets to about 30 to 40c.

It charges the 18650 very well and they don't get hot as hot as NiMH at a higher current.


I try to be careful with Alkalines. I only put them in when needed and take them out when I don't need them and I keep them away from hot places just incase they leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 06:52:53 pm
NiMH and NiCd leakage is extremely common

However, typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak.

That's the problem, they do leak and a lot. Maybe NiMH don't leak much but Alks do.


Make your mind up, please? NiMH cells don't leak much, or they leak a lot?

Statement I addressed:

"Typical AA and AAA cells are not likely to leak."

My response:

 "maybe NiMH don't leak that much BUT ALKs DO."


Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 07:00:47 pm


I try to be careful with Alkalines. I only put them in when needed and take them out when I don't need them and I keep them away from hot places just incase they leak.

Batteries have a max charge rate set by the manufacturer. I usually charge at C/10, you can't go very wrong at that rate.

I do the same thing as you with Alkaline batteries.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: floobydust on December 17, 2018, 07:08:55 pm
Is the only solution going around, finding all battery powered equipment and removing them, storing everything without any batteries in them and removing the batteries after one is finished using them?

That really is a pain in the butt.  It seems to me that some brands of batteries used to last forever without leaking.  What happened?

Conglomerates buy up battery manufacturers, and run them into the ground with the death spiral of lowest cost for maximum profit.

Duracell got bought up by Procter and Gamble for $5B later spun off to Berkshire Hathaway,  the third largest public company in the world. One share is $300,000 to purchase. Do you think they give a fuck about quality?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 17, 2018, 07:17:26 pm
I can see your comment being potentially ambiguous, especially if the context wasn't clear.

If you follow the thread the context was very clear.

Ian.M said that the NiMH or NiCd cells used for memory backup on circuit boards commonly leak.

I said that while that may be so, the AA and AAA variety of NiMH are not known for leaking.

Robaroni said maybe so, but alkalines do leak.

Well, no shit, Sherlock! This whole thread is about leaky alkaline batteries. Nobody is saying alkaline batteries don't leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Gary350z on December 17, 2018, 08:14:56 pm
It seems to me that some brands of batteries used to last forever without leaking.  What happened?

Someone made a statement a long while back (I don't know what thread), that said the alkaline battery leaking started about 12 years ago, about the same time as the manufacturers started making more powerful batteries, and that maybe the more powerful formulations generate more internal gas and causes them to leak. :-//

Edit: I see Robaroni had the same idea: "I think they kept pushing the envelope as to how much you can extract from an AAA or AA battery. Kind of a race to the top scenario. Now we're struck with leaking batteries".
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: BravoV on December 17, 2018, 08:45:09 pm
The chargers seem to differ in charging NiMH round cells.

The CM2020 adjusts the current all the time and according to voltage at whether it is set at 1 or 2 amps and they never get hot. They don't charge constantly at 1 or 2 amps. It appears to increase and decrease up to the charge rate set.

The MC 3000 puts in a fixed charge current that you set and they get very hot over 1a.
The default is 700mah and it gets to about 30 to 40c.

NiMh when charged with too low C, the charger detection probably will miss the peak detect slope signature as its too shallow, only with additional timer protection will prevent overcharging "and" also assuming it was empty.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Ian.M on December 17, 2018, 08:51:07 pm
It seems to me that some brands of batteries used to last forever without leaking.  What happened?

Someone made a statement a long while back (I don't know what thread), that said the alkaline battery leaking started about 12 years ago, about the same time as the manufacturers started making more powerful batteries, and that maybe the more powerful formulations generate more internal gas and causes them to leak. :-//

Edit: I see Robaroni had the same idea: "I think they kept pushing the envelope as to how much you can extract from an AAA or AA battery. Kind of a race to the top scenario. Now we're struck with leaking batteries".
Leaking batteries were certainly fairly common circa 20 year ago, (I did enough  repair work back then to see plenty, and it wasn't just 'Heavy Duty' Zinc Carbon ones, which can be expected to leak if left after discharge), so *IF* that explanation is correct, the timescale is wrong.  I certainly concluded around that era that heavily advertised leading brands like Energizer and Duracell weren't significantly less likely to leak than second tier brands and the better store brands.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: floobydust on December 17, 2018, 09:16:16 pm
Decades ago, I never saw alkaline batteries leak like they do today. Carbon-Zinc leaked if they were discharged and sitting for months. The Eveready "9 Lives" ones were pretty terrible for that.
Now alkalines are leaking even when they aren't dead, after 1-2 years.

My belief is AA and AAA seal material has changed for the worst due to cost and environmental concerns.

I'm staying with the pro/industrial alkaline batteries now, not the consumer lines.
Panasonic batteries from Digikey are also not leaking for me.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 09:41:58 pm
I can see your comment being potentially ambiguous, especially if the context wasn't clear.

If you follow the thread the context was very clear.

Ian.M said that the NiMH or NiCd cells used for memory backup on circuit boards commonly leak.

I said that while that may be so, the AA and AAA variety of NiMH are not known for leaking.

Robaroni said maybe so, but alkalines do leak.

Well, no shit, Sherlock! This whole thread is about leaky alkaline batteries. Nobody is saying alkaline batteries don't leak.

Maybe you could and go find someone else to continue your petty bickering with and stop biting at my ankles and for awhile.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 17, 2018, 09:46:12 pm
I was going through some of my cable tracers yesterday to see which ones still had the batteries installed and found one of my Aegis CZ-1000 tracers completely dead, the probe was fine and uses a 9 volt battery but the oscillator uses two AA's, these happened to be Toshiba alkalines both marked as best before 2009, the battery tester shows one is working as good as new and the other is completely dead, like nothing at all. Anyway, they didn't leak and I don't ever remember seeing a leaky Toshiba battery, plenty of Duracell Procells and those Dick Smith Digitors but never a Toshiba. 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2018, 09:47:33 pm
Decades ago, I never saw alkaline batteries leak like they do today. Carbon-Zinc leaked if they were discharged and sitting for months. The Eveready "9 Lives" ones were pretty terrible for that.
Now alkalines are leaking even when they aren't dead, after 1-2 years.

My belief is AA and AAA seal material has changed for the worst due to cost and environmental concerns.

I'm staying with the pro/industrial alkaline batteries now, not the consumer lines.
Panasonic batteries from Digikey are also not leaking for me.

Thanks, I'll give the Panasonics a try.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 18, 2018, 12:24:55 am
I was going through some of my cable tracers yesterday to see which ones still had the batteries installed and found one of my Aegis CZ-1000 tracers completely dead, the probe was fine and uses a 9 volt battery but the oscillator uses two AA's, these happened to be Toshiba alkalines both marked as best before 2009, the battery tester shows one is working as good as new and the other is completely dead, like nothing at all. Anyway, they didn't leak

...and I don't ever remember seeing a leaky Toshiba battery, plenty of Duracell Procells and those Dick Smith Digitors but never a Toshiba.

Recall City: yes, I'll vouch for Toshiba alkaline batteries too  :-+  never had one leak even when flat and forgotten  :-[

Never had any smoke detector issue with them either, they were cheap to buy and just worked till I swapped them out every 6 or 12 months,
and put the used ones in multimeters or other gadgets etc.

I still have a pair of red style 9v Toshiba that are dated 2003-ish, used, and still show 8.4 volts under load.
No leaks, corrosion and will serve fine in a multimeter in a pinch.

fwiw I had the same positive experience with Tandy/Realstic?  9v batteries too.

Not sure if the current Toshiba battery line can perform half as well, but I'd buy them exclusively if they do,

but not holding my breath on that one...  ::)

 

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: cdev on December 18, 2018, 12:43:54 am
Batteries are planned obsolescence's friends!
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 18, 2018, 05:11:59 am
No battery that has liquid inside it is absolutely immune to leaking, but some are far, far less likely to leak than others. I've been using Eneloops and some similar LSD NiMH cells since shortly after they came out and I have yet to have a single one leak or even hear of one leaking. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely enough that I don't worry about leaving them installed in my expensive gear. Alkalines on the other hand seem practically guaranteed to leak. I've had so many of them leak that I've lost count, multiple times they started leaking while still in the package and other times the device they were in was still working when I discovered the batteries were leaking while still producing juice.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 18, 2018, 05:12:25 pm
No battery that has liquid inside it is absolutely immune to leaking, but some are far, far less likely to leak than others. I've been using Eneloops and some similar LSD NiMH cells since shortly after they came out and I have yet to have a single one leak or even hear of one leaking. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely enough that I don't worry about leaving them installed in my expensive gear. Alkalines on the other hand seem practically guaranteed to leak. I've had so many of them leak that I've lost count, multiple times they started leaking while still in the package and other times the device they were in was still working when I discovered the batteries were leaking while still producing juice.

I was considering of buying them instead of the Ansmann many years ago for their long life but I read issues with the current draw such as the flash on cameras and leaking associated with high current use. I might want to do draw more current for my experiments so I decided to wait.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 18, 2018, 05:29:59 pm
I was considering of buying them instead of the Ansmann many years ago for their long life but I read issues with the current draw such as the flash on cameras and leaking associated with high current use. I might want to do draw more current for my experiments so I decided to wait.

What are you referring to when you say "them". Do you mean rechargeable NiMH cells like Eneloops?
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: MrMobodies on December 18, 2018, 05:48:40 pm
I was considering of buying them instead of the Ansmann many years ago for their long life but I read issues with the current draw such as the flash on cameras and leaking associated with high current use. I might want to do draw more current for my experiments so I decided to wait.

What are you referring to when you say "them". Do you mean rechargeable NiMH cells like Eneloops?

Sorry Eneloops.

I was choosing between the Ansmann AA and AAA's and the Eneloops.

I read some issues with the Eneloops leaking whilst they were used in the external flashes on cameras. I wanted the high power drain so I went the Ansmann and that was in 2012. Now I see they are selling the Eneloop Pro with 500 cycles for high drain. I can't remember all the details but I knew it was an issue then.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 18, 2018, 07:21:25 pm
I read some issues with the Eneloops leaking whilst they were used in the external flashes on cameras. I wanted the high power drain so I went the Ansmann and that was in 2012. Now I see they are selling the Eneloop Pro with 500 cycles for high drain. I can't remember all the details but I knew it was an issue then.

That's strange, I've never come across any complaints like that about Eneloops. In what tests I have seen they are robust and handle high current drains, bettered only by specialized high power cells. In my personal testing I had an older cell start venting when I tried to charge it at a 2 amp rate, but in this case it was only gas that vented and no liquid escaped. If you charge at a more sensible rate of 1 amp or less there are no issues. (In fact if you disassemble an Eneloop you will find it to be quite dry inside. Such NiMH cells have an "electrolyte starved" design.)

Eneloops should handle a 2 amp discharge rate with no trouble at all, and can handle a 5 amp discharge rate if you can put up with a bit of voltage sag. Also the 2000 mAh Eneloops will handle high power loads better than the 2400 mAh pro version. The higher capacity cells have thinner and more fragile internal elements.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 18, 2018, 07:23:38 pm
Now I see they are selling the Eneloop Pro with 500 cycles for high drain.

Be careful with this. They are higher capacity, but lower power output. Capacity and power output are inversely related.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on December 19, 2018, 02:14:07 am
Duracells leak new in the pack. Avoid. I now use dollar store alkalines for my old calculator and labelmaker. Not a single problem so far.
I lost a RC helicopter (a toy but still) remote to the Duracells vomiting forth within a few months.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 19, 2018, 02:23:57 am
Now I see they are selling the Eneloop Pro with 500 cycles for high drain.

Be careful with this. They are higher capacity, but lower power output. Capacity and power output are inversely related.
Nope, the only significant difference is charge cycle count. Basically they traded reliability for capacity.

https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1100000-1199999/001188322-da-01-en-ENELOOP_MIGNON_AKKU__8ER_SET.PDF (https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1100000-1199999/001188322-da-01-en-ENELOOP_MIGNON_AKKU__8ER_SET.PDF)
https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/250000-274999/252002-da-01-en-ENELOOP_MIGNON_AA_2ER_PACK.pdf (https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/250000-274999/252002-da-01-en-ENELOOP_MIGNON_AA_2ER_PACK.pdf)
http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1200000-1299999/001221220-da-01-en-PANASONIC_MIGNON_AKKU_ENELOOP_PRO__4ER.PDF (http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1200000-1299999/001221220-da-01-en-PANASONIC_MIGNON_AKKU_ENELOOP_PRO__4ER.PDF)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 19, 2018, 02:29:06 am
It's quite possible that the charge cycle count is related to the power output. A cell that is capable of delivering more current may go more cycles before it is deemed "worn out" with a given load.

All of the LSD types I've used are lacking somewhat in terms of delivering high current, it's just not what they're optimized for. It's ok though because generally if you need a lot of current, you don't need the low self discharge which is handy for small/intermittent loads.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 19, 2018, 02:47:42 am
It's quite possible that the charge cycle count is related to the power output. A cell that is capable of delivering more current may go more cycles before it is deemed "worn out" with a given load.

All of the LSD types I've used are lacking somewhat in terms of delivering high current, it's just not what they're optimized for. It's ok though because generally if you need a lot of current, you don't need the low self discharge which is handy for small/intermittent loads.
Check datasheets above your post.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 19, 2018, 04:10:57 am
Nope, the only significant difference is charge cycle count. Basically they traded reliability for capacity.

Check datasheets above your post.

Yes, the performance is very similar. But I think the graphs show that the 2000 mAh cell can sustain a slightly higher terminal voltage at high discharge currents than the 2550 mAh cell. The difference is not huge, which says a lot for the quality of the cells.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: BravoV on December 19, 2018, 04:21:32 am
Offtopic for leaking cell, but related to current discussion on NiMh, worth bookmarked imo -> http://aacycler.com/ (http://aacycler.com/)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 19, 2018, 04:35:36 am
But I think the graphs show that the 2000 mAh cell can sustain a slightly higher terminal voltage at high discharge currents than the 2550 mAh cell. The difference is not huge, which says a lot for the quality of the cells.
Nope, look at curves again. Discharge curve lines are drawn at a bit different currents, so take it into consideration. Say PRO battery @ 5A discharge current drops to 1.1V when 1500 mAh was discharged. Regular last generation eneloop produces 1.1V  after 1500 mAh discharged at 4A current (lower than PRO current) and after 1150mAh discharged with 6A current. So you can see regular eneloop is not even a tad better. PRO version will hold higher voltage for longer at the same high discharge current.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 19, 2018, 08:36:47 am
Duracells leak new in the pack. Avoid. I now use dollar store alkalines for my old calculator and labelmaker. Not a single problem so far.

I lost a RC helicopter (a toy but still) remote to the Duracells vomiting forth within a few months.


Ouch!  :(

Yep, seen it too, apparently there are legit (?!!) Duracell badged knockoffs (?!!)  going around too,
they sort of look not quite right to me, perhaps it's the font size?
who knows what jizz formula they are loaded up with, and overall construction ?  :-//

FWIW to the local aussie battery shoppers, I'm currently giving the Narva badged AA, AAA, and 9 volt batteries a go, the blister pack type Bunnings sell at battler friendly prices  :clap: 
Apparently made in Germany.
or blister packed in Germany,
or marketing concept made in Germany
and manufacturing subbed to TuHungLo Batterys Conepany

So far so good  :phew:  fingers and multimeter leads crossed they don't do The Exorcist gig inside 'can't afford to buy again' gear...   :scared:


Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: tooki on December 20, 2018, 09:20:06 am
What the heck does a “legit knockoff” even mean? If it’s legitimate, then it’s not a knockoff...
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rsjsouza on December 22, 2018, 09:00:19 pm
One brand I haven't had a problem in about 10 years is Rayovac AA and AAA alkalines. Sure, they are not the most powerful out there, but I had equipment inadvertently fitted with them for many years past expiration with no leakage problems.

Another brand that I haven't seen discussed here is Maxell - I used to see them sporadically, but my Keysight U1282A came with them (Black color Industrial version, can't be bought anywhere) and one of their claims (Keysight) is the absolutely low power consumption of this meter.

Anecdoctal evidence, several of my kids' toys come with a chinese battery brand called Tianqiu that takes an extreme amount of punishment and I haven't seen them leak. The number of batteries I encountered is rather small, but the amount of punishment put Duracells and Energizers to shame.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 22, 2018, 11:38:53 pm
Nano Rant Alert:  ;D

90 percent of pricey gear I've encountered with leaked batteries were fitted with Energizers. It's not even a maybe or 50/50 coin toss anymore  :palm:

They are the first item to be tossed or swapped out whatever their apparent state, be it new/used/unknown/who cares... before I proceed further to test any unit.
I'll go with whatever is available instead, even a mix of 'matched' new and used hard to pronounce the brand name MIC cheapies which is a NO-NO!  :scared: 
but still a better bet (Note: FOR ME!) than Enerjizzzers =  :-BROKE

Shows what great marketing can do year after year to flog overpriced landfill bound polished pos, to roll battling faith filled connedsumers  >:D


Some of these crappy battery brands somehow react with the battery terminals too, creating a crusty metallurgic?  effect, even though no 'apparent' leakage is present/visible.  :-//

That's another thing to watch out from that, fuzzy connections sending intermittent doses of 3.0v, 4.5 to 6 volts to a confused 6v driven meter or other device,
especially with vibrations, like plugging in leads and or moving the unit. Great for diode checks... :-+ ---> |O

Easily fixed by checking/adjusting connector tensions and lubing, but that's unpaid extra work  :rant:
cans of quality contact/lube cleaners and Q-tips are not free, nor included in the battery blister pack,
which in a lot of cases may require a blowtorch or grinder to open  :o

----------------------

Breaking News: The beloved Energizer Bunny has been arrested and charged with assault and battery

www.reddit.com/r/evilbuildings/comments/7nn3tc/breaking_news_the_beloved_energizer_bunny_has/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/evilbuildings/comments/7nn3tc/breaking_news_the_beloved_energizer_bunny_has/)


Break out the tar and feathers when Bunny hits the street again...   :popcorn:

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 22, 2018, 11:48:22 pm
I have seen no real difference in the leakiness between Duracell and Energizer, they're both crap. Seems like Energizer used to be more leak prone in the 80s-90s but then it's like Duracell said "hold my beer and watch this!"
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 23, 2018, 12:01:24 am
I have seen no real difference in the leakiness between Duracell and Energizer, they're both crap.

Seems like Energizer used to be more leak prone in the 80s-90s but then it's like Duracell said "hold my beer and watch this!"


That would not surprise me, I only use the alkaline 9v Duracells in smoke detectors because that's what they come with in the packet for starters,
and they have a good enough rep (and sales) for a chance to sue some dollars from them if they fail in a unit due to suss manufacturing,

including their own legit knockoffs > identically badged but cheaply made by them for smoke detector and other gadget sellers that demand -CHEAP- 
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rdl on December 23, 2018, 03:24:34 am
I have experienced a much higher rate of leakage failures with Duracell, even though I rarely buy them any more. It seems there must be a lot of unknown parameters at work here.

I wonder how hard it would be to accurately determine the failure rate of the major brands of batteries due to leakage. I'd bet that even today the manufacturers themselves don't really know to any great precision. I imagine it would be a massive project, and probably impractical to even consider trying due to the large number of variables.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 23, 2018, 03:42:05 am
Batteries leaked in my Keysight U1272A twice in a row. First time I needed to order and replace a whole back cover as some springy terminals were completely destroyed. Second time I noticed it fast enough and although terminals corroded a bit, I managed to just clean them. Not that much damage was made, just some tarnishing. So I said to myself: fuck 'em, non rechargeable batteries no more.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rsjsouza on December 23, 2018, 01:35:58 pm
Batteries leaked in my Keysight U1272A twice in a row.
That's what scares the heck out of me, especially after a pair of Duracells recently ruined a pristine HP95LX that I have.
I ended up changing the Maxell AAs of my U1282A to Lithium non rechargeables. My U1273A, on the other hand, depletes batteries a lot faster, so it is fitted with the aforementioed Ray-o-vacs.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: wraper on December 23, 2018, 02:21:01 pm
I bought a bunch IKEA LADDA (white) which are the same batteries as panasonic eneloop pro except print on the label. around $7 for a pack of 4. Not that expensive.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: tooki on December 23, 2018, 02:22:25 pm
I couldn’t disagree more about Duracell vs Energizer: I’ve had tons of Duracells leak, very few Energizers. That said, I now just buy the IKEA alkalines. They used to be made by Varta, but now they’re made in China, dunno by whom. (The IKEA rechargeables are Eneloops.)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: eugenenine on December 23, 2018, 03:08:53 pm
One brand I haven't had a problem in about 10 years is Rayovac AA and AAA alkalines. Sure, they are not the most powerful out there, but I had equipment inadvertently fitted with them for many years past expiration with no leakage problems.


Thats funny because RayoVac is the worst leaker I've had.  Had a few kids toys ruined and even found some leaking in the package in the store.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: voltsandjolts on December 23, 2018, 03:16:42 pm
Vatra High Energy alkaline factory line...
Seems they use a bitumen blob for the seal.
At 4min30s is the self test, with every 8th cell failing by the looks of it!

https://youtu.be/2BafNGDnxZw (https://youtu.be/2BafNGDnxZw)
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rsjsouza on December 23, 2018, 03:23:46 pm
One brand I haven't had a problem in about 10 years is Rayovac AA and AAA alkalines. Sure, they are not the most powerful out there, but I had equipment inadvertently fitted with them for many years past expiration with no leakage problems.


Thats funny because RayoVac is the worst leaker I've had.  Had a few kids toys ruined and even found some leaking in the package in the store.
Yes... That only shows how much variability is out there.

I wonder if it boils down to a compromise between high output power/capacity and low leakage. I can only speculate, though.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 23, 2018, 06:53:32 pm
It wouldn't surprise me if even the big name brands are often made in different factories using different processes depending on the market. There could also be a bit of confirmation bias going on.

When it comes down to it, I've had alkalines of almost every brand I've used leak, the one thing I am quite certain of is that modern ones are far more leak prone than they used to be. For some reason too AA seems to be the worst, I have had very few C and D cells leak although I don't use very many of those either.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: IanB on December 23, 2018, 07:23:38 pm
Vatra High Energy alkaline factory line...

At 2m37s -- "the battery is filled with this toxic, corrosive, gloopy substance" -- well there's the trouble, right there. Do you want to put containers of toxic, corrosive, gloopy substance inside your valuable electronic devices? It's a problem waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: tooki on December 23, 2018, 07:52:24 pm
At 4min30s is the self test, with every 8th cell failing by the looks of it!
I strongly suspect what’s being filmed there is a self-test of the testing machine itself, to show for the camera how a reject is ejected.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: Electro Detective on December 24, 2018, 07:28:51 am

Taking in all the horror stories here, it appears NONE of the reputable batteries are worth wasting money on  :--

especially former competing 'kings' and bonking bunny floggers Duracell and Eveready 

Their suspect to bad performance varies from country to country, or state to state it seems. 

Ladies and gents with expensive test gear > put a reminder in your phone calender to swap out the leakers every six months  :scared:

or better still 3 months

Better to blow $6 than $600...  :phew:





Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2018, 01:14:39 pm
You think all batteries for a brand come out the same plant. They are made in various countries, in various plants and with varying quality. Duracell I know comes from Mexico, Indonesia, Singapore and China, having seen that on the outer printed package as to country of origin, and you also see grey imports of job lots coming in, destined for somewhere like UAE, with only Arabic writing on the packaging, and the only English being Duracell AA or AAA on the package, the rest, including importer and distributor details, being in Arabic script written right to left.

Just wish I could find out the supplier of the white no name cells, sold by Unilever with Airoma packages, those things I found never leak, as I was buying the whole package on a "2 units plus 2 refills" sale for a while, as the price for the package was actually cheaper than the retail price of the 2 refill pack anyway. I would simply take the units, strip them and drop in the recycling bin, and use the refills, and keep the AA cells they came with. Then stopped buying them.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 24, 2018, 07:12:45 pm
I just use Eneloops in my expensive devices, problem solved. Never seen one leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: bitseeker on December 26, 2018, 08:45:02 am
Eneloops for me as well. I have dozens of their AA and AAA cells powering various devices at home. We use many at work, too. No leaks, yet, for the past 10 years.

For 9V, I've tried a couple brands of NiMH for DMMs, but the sample size is too small to report any findings. So far, so good, though. I recently bought some LiIon rechargeable 9V to test out. Put a couple of them in some smoke detectors.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: 6PTsocket on December 26, 2018, 05:54:09 pm
Alkalines are prone to leakage Duracells are notorius. Costco's house brand, Kirkland are also Duracell. There has been the rare item I could not clean up. Plain distilled white vinegar ($.79 a qt.at the supermarket)  applied with a cotton swab removes the battery crud with ease. A little  dielectric grease protects areas that have lost their plating from the corrosion. Surprisingly, the cheap, Chinese, Harbor Freight alkalines, their Thunderbolt brand have never leaked on me.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 26, 2018, 08:13:20 pm
I've had corrosion damage the contacts to the point where they were never reliable again. Particularly those where a spring is mechanically clipped into a strip.

For 9V I have used several types of NiMH that work well. I have a couple that I bought at Harbor Freight years ago that work about as well as anything in multimeters. I have had a lot less problems with leakage of 9V alkalines than AA though. They typically bulge on the ends before they leak, and the fiber end covers seem to absorb a good deal of electrolyte.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rdl on December 26, 2018, 10:33:48 pm
As a replacement for 9 volt alkaline NiMH is okay, but the ones I've tried have pretty low capacity. Li-ion is much closer to alkaline for actual run time.

Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 26, 2018, 10:36:16 pm
Yeah no argument there, I've found NiMH to be adequate for my DMMs though, they last a fairly long time either way.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: gbaddeley on December 27, 2018, 05:54:39 am
I recently opened a piece of test gear that runs on 4 D size Duracell Alkalines. It had not been switched on for at least 10 years. The cells had use by date 2002. They had not leaked at all, even though they were  flat.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 27, 2018, 05:58:31 am
The D cells seem to be quite robust. When we were cleaning out my partner's grandfather's place after he passed away I found a Pay n Save bag from the 80s with a package of Energizer D cells from the 80s that were leaking but that's the only time I can recall seeing D size alkalines leak. I haven't seen many C cells leak either, the AA's are the worst by a long shot, followed by AAA.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: CatalinaWOW on December 27, 2018, 09:58:12 am
I wish the D cells in my Maglites knew they didn't leak. I suspect there are two reasons you haven't seen as many leaking D cells.  First, there are far fewer of them used.  I probably have ten to twenty pieces of equipment using AA or AAA for every one that uses D size.  Secondly, that equipment tends not to put a parasitic load on the batteries.  It is off, not on standby.  As noted previously, batteries are far more likely to leak when drained flat.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: rsjsouza on December 27, 2018, 02:46:21 pm
I have the impression that D cells leak less as well but, as CatalinaWOW mentioned, it may be a numbers game. However, the D cells on my flashlights take much more abuse than the pampered AAs or AAAs, with the bent top notches due to the stress from the flashlights springs and the mechanical hits that naturally happen with them (my twin 5 year olds love to play with them, with the occasional bump and fall).

To me, AAs and AAAs equally leak.
Title: Re: Leaking AA and AAA batteries
Post by: james_s on December 27, 2018, 07:14:14 pm
A large part of it probably is numbers, I haven't done extensive testing. About the only thing I use D batteries in are the virtual walls for my Roomba, they last quite a long time and are eventually drained completely flat.