Author Topic: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?  (Read 8047 times)

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Online Psi

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2023, 01:23:25 am »
Once you go LED strip you never go back.

I might be forced to go that way eventually, but the fluorescents I have in my garage produce a claimed 5200 lumens per fixture (2600 lumens per tube), and a fixture draws 54 W, giving about 96 lumens per watt. This lm/W figure seems comparable with typical LEDs and the illumination is very comfortable on the eyes. It doesn't have any of that harsh, green, industrial feel that many fluorescents have.

A friend just bought like 30 meters of cheap china natural white LED strip and put them along the exposed wooden roof columns in his garage. About 8 lengths of 4m.  He says it's the best thing ever, crazy bright and light everywhere.
We dropped the voltage on his metal cage PSU to get the temp under 50C so should last forever.

This guy reviews LED strips from aliexpress. So you can check out which aliexpress sellers have decent ones.
And he has links to them.
https://quinled.info/
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 01:28:47 am by Psi »
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Online themadhippy

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2023, 01:58:08 am »
Quote
I wonder why? Starters have not been a thing here for lamps larger than 18" for around half a century when rapid start autotransformer ballasts took over,
here being the operative word,switch start florrys  are still a thing here in the uk,ok not so common for new installs but theirs still  plenty of em kicking around
Quote
I can't think of a reason off hand that simply removing the starter would not be sufficient.
https://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA?t=936
 

Offline james_s

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2023, 02:08:35 am »
Quote
I wonder why? Starters have not been a thing here for lamps larger than 18" for around half a century when rapid start autotransformer ballasts took over,
here being the operative word,switch start florrys  are still a thing here in the uk,ok not so common for new installs but theirs still  plenty of em kicking around
Quote
I can't think of a reason off hand that simply removing the starter would not be sufficient.
https://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA?t=936

"Here" just explains why I don't know the answer, I know that starters are still in widespread use in 240V land.

I still don't understand why the tubes are wired such that the starter needs to be replaced. It would be trivial for a retrofit tube to have the pins on each end shorted together and take power from both ends of the tube, the way the type that is meant to use the original ballast are wired. Then simply remove the starter. Instead that video indicates they're using tubes that take power from only one end, the other end is just a shorting jumper and then you have to bypass the starter too.
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2023, 02:11:51 am »
here being the operative word,switch start florrys  are still a thing here in the uk,ok not so common for new installs but theirs still  plenty of em kicking around

I think there's a significant difference between fluorescent light fittings in 240 V lands vs. 120 V lands. Having 240 V available completely changes (changed) the design of the fittings. I would need to check into it, but I think 240 V is enough to strike a large tube by itself, whereas 120 V is too low and needs help? I believe what happened is that starters in the UK simply apply the full 240 V across the tube to strike it, while in the USA a step-up transformer was needed. This additional cost accelerated the phasing out of traditional starters in North America, while allowing them to last a lot longer in the UK.

That said, the updated light fittings I put in my garage with electronic ballasts are impressive. The tubes simply light up when you flick the switch, with no start up delay or warm up time at all. They are just like incandescents, full brightness immediately. I don't know what magic sauce they put in the ballasts, but whatever it is, it seems to work.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2023, 02:14:51 am »
Quote
It would be trivial for a retrofit tube to have the pins on each end shorted together and take power from both ends of the tube
covered in the video, but ,for those with short attention span -safety ,you get one end in and your trying to get the other end in and touch the pins,you aint turned the switch off so  and  your in series with the led and earth.
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2023, 02:15:40 am »
I still don't understand why the tubes are wired such that the starter needs to be replaced. It would be trivial for a retrofit tube to have the pins on each end shorted together and take power from both ends of the tube, the way the type that is meant to use the original ballast are wired. Then simply remove the starter. Instead that video indicates they're using tubes that take power from only one end, the other end is just a shorting jumper and then you have to bypass the starter too.

If you took power from both ends of the tube in a traditional fitting with magnetic ballast, wouldn't that put the LED strip in series with the ballast? That might work if the LED strip was designed with that in mind, but then it might not work with electronic ballasts that have instant start. I imagine the designers have to cater for users who are not familiar with such details, and have to make things that uninformed users cannot screw up?
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2023, 02:17:34 am »
covered in the video, but ,for those with short attention span -safety ,you get one end in and your trying to get the other end in and touch the pins,you aint turned the switch off so  and  your in series with the led and earth.

Isn't that already the case with a normal tube? Why should it matter if it happens to be an LED replacement instead of a normal tube replacement?
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2023, 02:18:39 am »
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I don't know what magic sauce they put in the ballasts,
HPV
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2023, 02:22:55 am »
Quote
Isn't that already the case with a normal tube? Why should it matter if it happens to be an LED replacement instead of a normal tube replacement
no,on a traditional florry all thats between the pins is  a coil of wire ,theres no connection in the tube from end to end
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2023, 02:35:46 am »
no,on a traditional florry all thats between the pins is  a coil of wire ,theres no connection in the tube from end to end

Granted, but you could still touch one pin while the other pin has already made contact with the socket?

It rather seems like Darwin award stuff, since sane people only hold the glass when installing a tube. Electricity is dangerous, you know? Touching exposed metal parts is not a good idea.

But I get it, there is no accounting for people...  :(
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2023, 03:53:22 am »
Quote
It would be trivial for a retrofit tube to have the pins on each end shorted together and take power from both ends of the tube
covered in the video, but ,for those with short attention span -safety ,you get one end in and your trying to get the other end in and touch the pins,you aint turned the switch off so  and  your in series with the led and earth.

Who does that? Are the sockets different there? Here you slide the tube in both ends at the same time and then twist it and the pins engage with the contacts. You're always supposed to turn off the switch when relamping but in practice it's rarely an issue. Whatever the case the LED retrofit tubes I have in my kitchen are exactly this way, power is fed from each end of the tube and it requires no modification to the fixture at all, it uses the original electronic ballast to regulate the current and you can even use a mix of fluorescent and LED tubes if you wanted to. It never occurred to me that some would be different.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2023, 03:59:22 am »
If you took power from both ends of the tube in a traditional fitting with magnetic ballast, wouldn't that put the LED strip in series with the ballast? That might work if the LED strip was designed with that in mind, but then it might not work with electronic ballasts that have instant start. I imagine the designers have to cater for users who are not familiar with such details, and have to make things that uninformed users cannot screw up?

Yes but so what? A choke coil in series with an LED lamp that draws less power than the original tube will result in only a modest voltage drop, the lamp could easily be designed to account for that without sacrificing its ability to operate direct from the line without a choke. If a retrofit tube requires modifying the fixture in any way then you might as well remove the ballast entirely and feed power directly to the tube sockets.

Actually those tubes that get power from one end only and have the ballast bypassed present a significant flaw, if somebody ever installs a standard fluorescent tube in the fixture you're going to have the full 240V mains across the cathode and that's going to go bang. Typically they operate at only a few volts, limited in preheat fixtures by the current that the ballast choke can pass.
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2023, 06:02:05 am »
Yes but so what? A choke coil in series with an LED lamp that draws less power than the original tube will result in only a modest voltage drop, the lamp could easily be designed to account for that without sacrificing its ability to operate direct from the line without a choke. If a retrofit tube requires modifying the fixture in any way then you might as well remove the ballast entirely and feed power directly to the tube sockets.

Got that, but I think electronic ballasts might work like a switching power supply at a much higher frequency than normal, and then the LED lamp would have be be able to operate with that? (I don't know for sure, but at a guess the kind of electronic ballast I have might be a high frequency AC constant current supply with a very high compliance voltage. This would explain the instant on, no warm up behavior of the tubes. It would treat the lamp as a gas discharge tube like a neon tube. If this were the case, the LED replacement would be subjected to the same constant current that the ballast demanded.)
 

Online wraper

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2023, 12:12:10 pm »
Did you know that Fluorescent light tubes are highly recyclable? So we are actually causing more environmental harm by buying LED lights in droves than we are sticking with Fluorescent.... If you ignore the mercury.
LED bulbs are 2-4 times more efficient. During it's lifetime energy consumption difference is much more than any additional recycled materials could possibly be worth it. Not to say other than glass from the tube, I don't see any difference between them in regards of materials to be recycled. Recycling is a complete bullshit for the most part. The vast majority of materials still go to the landfill and resulting materials are usually lower quality, often more expensive than raw materials, and considering resources spent on recycling not that green to begin with. It makes a lot of sense to recycle metals but oher than that it's more like whitewashing and what makes you feel good about yourself.
 

Online Psi

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2023, 12:33:40 pm »
Did you know that Fluorescent light tubes are highly recyclable? So we are actually causing more environmental harm by buying LED lights in droves than we are sticking with Fluorescent.... If you ignore the mercury.

The problem with currently available LED bulbs is they always run way too hot due to being very compact.
The driver overheats, capacitors fail and the LED die ages super fast.
You could say it's just a cost savings measure or planned obsolescence.
But in any case, a LED bulb that should last well over 15 years lasts 2 years, maybe 5 years for a really good brand.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 12:36:17 pm by Psi »
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Online wraper

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2023, 12:40:06 pm »
And Flourescent is mostly glass.
You forgot about ballasts and large enclosures they come with. Not to say there are hell a lot more of materials used for the same light output. I personally mostly use cheap LED bulbs from IKEA which have 138lm/w. https://www.ikea.lv/en/products/kitchen/kitchen-lighting/light-bulbs/solhetta-led-bulb-e14-470-lumen-opal-white-art-00498735
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 12:43:59 pm by wraper »
 

Online wraper

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2023, 12:50:41 pm »
Ooh quite impressive. Wonder what the cost is. if you take into account the upfront cost then maybe its not such a great idea?
High efficiency bulbs also run way less hot, so higher price should be compensated by lifetime.
 

Online wraper

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2023, 12:53:04 pm »
The ballasts are also rated for 25,000 hours.
In practice fluerescent electronic ballasts often fail faster than ballasts in LED bulbs despite them running very hot due to compact size. One should get LED light fixture for new installations, those run quite cool so should last much longer than retrofit LED bulbs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 12:56:44 pm by wraper »
 

Offline deadlylover

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2023, 01:18:30 pm »
I'm using the Cutter optisolis strips. In terms of light quality it's basically as good as it gets. Decent value too if you happen to be in Australia I don't know how bad shipping is overseas. It's on a proper MCPCB not those crappy flexible strips.

Powered using a Meanwell LED driver with a pot to control brightness. Unfortunately I find myself being nocturnal occasionally and having high quality lighting seems to make a huge difference to my mental health as funny as that sounds.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2023, 01:26:49 pm »
Quote
but you could still touch one pin while the other pin has already made contact with the socket
you have to try really hard as its almost impossible,its actually easier to achieve with the  twist end caps mentioned below
Quote
Here you slide the tube in both ends at the same time and then twist it and the pins engage with the contacts.

we,and im quessing large parts of the world also use the type that  has 2 holes and held in place by a spring,

top and bottom type of thing
 

Offline madires

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2023, 03:16:07 pm »
Quote
There are two types of LED retrofit tubes on the market. One type is meant to work with the original ballast in place, and the other type you bypass the ballast and wire it straight to the line.
and the type were you need to replace or bypass the starter

BTW, the 'LED starter' is simply a fuse. And that fuse is a good idea in case the LED retrofit is suicidal. So far I had two retrofits go bang.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2023, 03:29:34 pm »
The problem with currently available LED bulbs is they always run way too hot due to being very compact.
The driver overheats, capacitors fail and the LED die ages super fast.
You could say it's just a cost savings measure or planned obsolescence.
But in any case, a LED bulb that should last well over 15 years lasts 2 years, maybe 5 years for a really good brand.

That's why some posters already suggested to go for 12V LED strips if feasible. Add a nice 12V LED SMPSU and you don't have to change retrofit bulbs regularly.
 

Online IanB

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2023, 06:48:37 pm »
The problem with currently available LED bulbs is they always run way too hot due to being very compact.
The driver overheats, capacitors fail and the LED die ages super fast.
You could say it's just a cost savings measure or planned obsolescence.
But in any case, a LED bulb that should last well over 15 years lasts 2 years, maybe 5 years for a really good brand.

Yes, I have read about this before.

However, I prefer subdued light for area lighting purposes, so I have all my area lights turned down on a dimmer switch and they will be running a lot cooler than full brightness. So I expect them to last a long time.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2023, 07:51:21 pm »
BTW, the 'LED starter' is simply a fuse. And that fuse is a good idea in case the LED retrofit is suicidal. So far I had two retrofits go bang.

I would consider it a design flaw that the retrofit lamps don't have a fuse built in. Every screw in LED or CFL bulb I've torn down had either a fuse or a fusible resistor.
 
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Offline deadlylover

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Re: LED LIGHTS. Any good flicker free ones?
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2023, 11:01:28 pm »
Here is a google sheets doc for high CRI LED bulb options made by the flashlight enthusiasts at budget light forum.

I've always wanted to try one of the Sunlike bulbs, I like the chunky heat sinking. Maybe it's a bit tooo how ya doin' for a light fixture but I bet it'll make for a great desk lamp or photography light.
 
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