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Offline Cyberdragon

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LG Battery BS
« on: February 01, 2020, 05:39:36 pm »


 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

Corporations really have no fucking clue...

Next they might as well say buy our electric equipment not because "you should go green" but because "gasoline is dangerous, consumers should never handle a jerrycan of gasoline, IT COULD EXPLODE!"

 :blah: :rant:
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Online BravoV

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2020, 07:23:51 pm »
For almost decades, to me at least, LG stands for "L"ame "G"adget, enough said.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2020, 07:55:47 pm »
If they said unprotected batteries, I would probably agree. Stupid bastards buy unprotected batteries "because they can supply more current" (stronger smoke). Then put them into mechanical mod vapes which directly connect heater across battery, no electronics, no protection. Then batteries explode in their stupid face and then they sue battery MFG, which is probably why this ad exists.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/paynter-law-sues-lg-chem-over-allegedly-defective-lithium-ion-batteries-300785610.html
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 07:58:03 pm by wraper »
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2020, 08:02:33 pm »
If they said unprotected batteries, I would probably agree. Stupid bastards buy unprotected batteries "because they can supply more current" (stronger smoke). Then put them into mechanical mod vapes which directly connect heater across battery, no electronics, no protection. Then batteries explode in their stupid face and then they sue battery MFG, which is probably why this ad exists.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/paynter-law-sues-lg-chem-over-allegedly-defective-lithium-ion-batteries-300785610.html
I agree. I think the commercial is right to warn the common public against the dangers of unprotected lithium cells / lithium cells from shady suppliers. This has nothing to do with dis-allowing people to fix their own stuff.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 08:04:17 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2020, 08:05:13 pm »
That video shows that sleeve of bare LG 18650 cell can be easily damaged in noncompliant charger (having no spring-loaded contact). Sony sleeves are as fragile BTW. Yes, people actually *are* that dumb as shown in the video, they happen to put bare cells into pockets (facepalm). Seems, Louis missed main message - "don't put damaged or not, cell into pocket together with metallic objects, keys".

I do not see anything wrong when LG warns to not (mis)use cells that are not intended for consumer use. Everybody before facepalming are suggested to read commend under original video: "LG Chem manufactures and distributes Lithium-ion cells to industrial and business purchasers only."
 
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Online wraper

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2020, 08:06:52 pm »
I think the commercial is right to warn the common public against the dangers of unprotected lithium cells / lithium cells from shady suppliers.
IMHO more like covering their ass in case of lawsuits. They can now show that we warned consumers not to use them.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2020, 08:34:41 pm »
Accidents happen and will happen due to vaping epidemic. Reports at end of the doc, scary stuff. No wonder manufacturers are putting legal safety pillows all around.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2020, 10:43:37 pm »
It's just blanket scaremongering though. They make no attempt to explain that protected cells are safe and unprotected cells are not, just "ooo...batteries are bad!". There are plenty of devices that run on replacable cells like powerbanks, flashlights/lanterns, even that fan they show in the clip. All perfecty safe with proper protected cells. Not just idiots with vapes buy lithium batteries.

With the same analogy, if someone tried to make a PSA about how to properly handle fuels, but instead just showed someone doing everything wrong and blowing up without explaining anything and just saying "gas is bad!", that's not a PSA, that's just making a stupid video spreading misinformation. Also the fact that they won't sell even protected cells just gives people more incentive to buy shitty Chinese garbage.

There will always be idiots who do stupid things. Do people who smoke a pack a day care about anti-smoking ads? No, of course not, no more than dumbasses who do vape mods would listen to that crap. All they've achieved is frightening John Doe who just wants to change the aging cells in his LED flashlight into thinking "oh no, batteries explode if I change them! Maybe I should just throw this otherwise perfectly working device away and buy a new one." :palm:

PSA's should be to inform, not misinform. In the same runtime they could have easily explained, in layman's terms, that people should only buy protected cells.
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Offline station240

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2020, 01:52:17 am »
Direct link to the original LG video (unlisted)


The message could be:
1. Don't buy cheap cells from China.
2. Use protected cells, they are safer.
3. Store loose cells in a protective plastic case.
4. Don't keep your keys/other metal objects, in your pocket with 18650 cells.

Nope, instead we get pure marketing BS, scare mongering.
Some of those battery fires shown in the video are samsung phones, stock footage fail.
 
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Offline oPossum

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2020, 02:11:58 am »
Another LG PSA fearmongering video from LG. Starts at 14:00.

https://youtu.be/pS11TNmUGiA?t=840
 

Offline amyk

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2020, 04:06:54 am »
Seems, Louis missed main message - "don't put damaged or not, cell into pocket together with metallic objects, keys".
I know alkaline and rechargeable batteries in the common sizes all have this warning on the package, and have had it for a long time. NiCd and NiMH can also output huge amounts of current when shorted.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2020, 05:17:07 am »
Seems, Louis missed main message - "don't put damaged or not, cell into pocket together with metallic objects, keys".
I know alkaline and rechargeable batteries in the common sizes all have this warning on the package, and have had it for a long time. NiCd and NiMH can also output huge amounts of current when shorted.
But they don't explode in fire when overloaded.
 

Offline Gary350z

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2020, 06:07:21 am »
Seems, Louis missed main message - "don't put damaged or not, cell into pocket together with metallic objects, keys".
I know alkaline and rechargeable batteries in the common sizes all have this warning on the package, and have had it for a long time. NiCd and NiMH can also output huge amounts of current when shorted.
But they don't explode in fire when overloaded.

This is not true. I have seen NiCd sub-C cells shoot out flames about 5 inches long. This was in a radio controlled race car which draws huge amounts of current. Who knows how the owner treated the cells.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2020, 08:59:37 am »
But they don't explode in fire when overloaded.
This is not true. I have seen NiCd sub-C cells shoot out flames about 5 inches long. This was in a radio controlled race car which draws huge amounts of current. Who knows how the owner treated the cells.
Telco battery banks also burst into flames when shorted. It does not disprove ANYTHING. Li-Ion cells contains flammable electrolyte and are suspect to thermal runaway when shorted. Sorry about repeating myself but those who say "scaremongering" are advised to read more about 18650 Li-Ion cell failure modes and statistics of accidents in US alone: https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/electronic_cigarettes.pdf

Affected individuals most likely are suing manufacturers out of their money and mind, this is main reason of disclaimers and warning videos. I don't mind that they are dumbed down because many people are indeed that dumb while using dangerous stuff.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2020, 10:10:04 am »
It’s common knowledge among electronics experts that lithium ion cells have insanely high short circuit currents, far more than NiMH, and are much, much, much more susceptible to catastrophic damage resulting in fire. (Fire is NOT a common failure mode in NiMH cells, even if it’s possible.) I don’t think it’s fearmongering in any way to warn consumers away from bare LiIon cells, since most consumers have no idea just how badly a mishandled LiIon cell can behave.

As for Rossmann, I don’t understand why people give him so much attention. He’s a whiny windbag with a chip on his shoulder. I do agree with him that the USA has become cripplingly risk-averse, but I don’t actually see this particular instance as being evidence of this.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 10:11:44 am by tooki »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2020, 12:12:25 pm »
18650 cells are internal parts of electronic devices only to be bought and assembled by professional designers and manufacturers. They can't be compared to NiMH, alkaline, etc. batteries sold to general public.

Abuse of such cells in direct consumer applications is common, and acceptable IMHO, because I'm all for "do whatever you want", but there is a problem if people do not know they are abusing a product for a non-intended purpose. This isn't good. You need to do it on purpose, not by accident.

"Protected 18650" is an afterthought concept, and because they are originally designed for a fairly small "hobbyist" segment, the quality varies. The form factor is limiting; it cannot grow in size much, or it won't fit. Because the protection PCB requires access to both electrodes, they must run an unprotected metal strip along the side of the cell. The quality of isolation of this strip varies.

18650 cells do incorporate PTC self-resetting fuses in the cap construction, but power tool cells naturally have higher threshold. A mid-ohmic "almost short", or overload in general, is very problematic because it bypasses such fusing but can still cause damage.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 12:15:48 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline m98

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2020, 02:17:38 pm »
18650 cells are internal parts of electronic devices only to be bought and assembled by professional designers and manufacturers. They can't be compared to NiMH, alkaline, etc. batteries sold to general public.
:bullshit:
Stop justifying their fearmongering tactics. If a customer was to accidentally short out a car battery, the bang is going to be bigger than the best a 18650 cell ever could accomplish. Are we now going to weld shut engine covers? For safety, of course!

So there are currently about 100 e-cigs-related fire incidents per year in the US, with the majority resulting in no or moderate injury. More people are killed by lightning strikes in the US than severely injured by an e-cig catching fire.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2020, 02:57:20 pm »
18650 cells are internal parts of electronic devices only to be bought and assembled by professional designers and manufacturers. They can't be compared to NiMH, alkaline, etc. batteries sold to general public.
:bullshit:
Stop justifying their fearmongering tactics. If a customer was to accidentally short out a car battery, the bang is going to be bigger than the best a 18650 cell ever could accomplish. Are we now going to weld shut engine covers? For safety, of course!
I'd like to see you put a car battery in your back pocket. Besides that car batteries are covered by plastic shields nowadays.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2020, 03:57:23 pm »
18650 cells are internal parts of electronic devices only to be bought and assembled by professional designers and manufacturers. They can't be compared to NiMH, alkaline, etc. batteries sold to general public.

Abuse of such cells in direct consumer applications is common, and acceptable IMHO, because I'm all for "do whatever you want", but there is a problem if people do not know they are abusing a product for a non-intended purpose. This isn't good. You need to do it on purpose, not by accident.

"Protected 18650" is an afterthought concept, and because they are originally designed for a fairly small "hobbyist" segment, the quality varies. The form factor is limiting; it cannot grow in size much, or it won't fit. Because the protection PCB requires access to both electrodes, they must run an unprotected metal strip along the side of the cell. The quality of isolation of this strip varies.

18650 cells do incorporate PTC self-resetting fuses in the cap construction, but power tool cells naturally have higher threshold. A mid-ohmic "almost short", or overload in general, is very problematic because it bypasses such fusing but can still cause damage.
:bullshit:

There are far more devices than just e-cigs that have replaceable lithium cells. Protected cells are NOT designed for "just hobbyists". And if you advicate that all cells should be non-replaceable you are just as bad as the corporations that push that shit.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 11:54:33 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline amyk

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2020, 08:18:16 pm »
Looks like this thread has quite a few corporate shills too. :palm:

For an extra bit of irony, look at the datasheets for LG's own 18650s and particularly at the "safety" section:



In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective.... :-//
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2020, 08:57:08 pm »
In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective.... :-//
Cells in the video are green, LG cells are brown: https://www.18650batterystore.com/18650-p/lg-hg2.htm
[edit] I had to be corrected later. LG 18650 cell colors are all over the place, including green  :-DD U never know...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 11:10:57 pm by ogden »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2020, 08:58:35 pm »
Looks like this thread has quite a few corporate shills too. :palm:
Ignorance is bliss.
Quote
For an extra bit of irony, look at the datasheets for LG's own 18650s and particularly at the "safety" section:
Well... these are the results for testing new cells according to the UN38.3 regulations. These regulations also have requirements for the battery management systems. If you are going to use unprotected cells in a device designed for use with protected cells you are in big trouble. Overcharging and severe discharging will cause cell damage / deterioration which eventually can lead to the cell self-igniting.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 09:00:11 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2020, 10:13:18 pm »
In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective.... :-//
Cells in the video are green, LG cells are brown: https://www.18650batterystore.com/18650-p/lg-hg2.htm
LG makes cells of different color depending on model.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2020, 10:14:04 pm »
Looks like this thread has quite a few corporate shills too. :palm:

For an extra bit of irony, look at the datasheets for LG's own 18650s and particularly at the "safety" section:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lg-battery-bs/?action=dlattach;attach=920904;image

In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective.... :-//

I wonder if there is any difference in spec, those are 3000mAh INR8650's which should have higher ESR. Vapers tend to use unprotected, high current capacity cells. Although 20mR I see in the datasheet seems very low.

They are saying short with a 100mR resistor so:
100mR + 20mR ESR => 4.2V / 0.120 = 35A peak current.

Some vapes are in the hundreds of mR, but I believe its rare, as the power would just be ridiculously high.
Who wants to measure the resistance of their keys?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: LG Battery BS
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2020, 10:32:11 pm »
It’s common knowledge among electronics experts that lithium ion cells have insanely high short circuit currents, far more than NiMH, and are much, much, much more susceptible to catastrophic damage resulting in fire. (Fire is NOT a common failure mode in NiMH cells, even if it’s possible.) I don’t think it’s fearmongering in any way to warn consumers away from bare LiIon cells, since most consumers have no idea just how badly a mishandled LiIon cell can behave.

Both Lithium Ion and NiMH are exothermic, so are essentially equivalent in their ability to have runaway thermal effects.
NiCd is endothermic.
 
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