Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 180448 times)

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Offline Gyro

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1325 on: January 07, 2021, 09:59:26 pm »
It must be so easy (OK, it may sting a bit) to pay up to make it go away and [EDIT for Nusa's benefit: nobody] going to Jail.

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Boeing has agreed to pay $2.5bn (£1.8bn) to settle US criminal charges that it hid information from safety officials about the design of its 737 Max planes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55582496
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 12:15:11 pm by Gyro »
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Offline Nusa

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1326 on: January 07, 2021, 11:59:21 pm »
It must be so easy (OK, it may sting a bit) to pay up to make it go away and not going to Jail.

Quote
Boeing has agreed to pay $2.5bn (£1.8bn) to settle US criminal charges that it hid information from safety officials about the design of its 737 Max planes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55582496

Out of curiosity, exactly how would you put Boeing in jail, even if you wanted to?
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1327 on: January 08, 2021, 03:34:00 am »
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55582496

Out of curiosity, exactly how would you put Boeing in jail, even if you wanted to?

The jail sentence would probably be for the high ranking management personnel and the Boeing employees (engineers?) who were acting as FAA representative.  They definitively deserve criminal charge and jail time.

 :)
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1328 on: January 08, 2021, 06:46:31 am »
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55582496

Out of curiosity, exactly how would you put Boeing in jail, even if you wanted to?

The jail sentence would probably be for the high ranking management personnel and the Boeing employees (engineers?) who were acting as FAA representative.  They definitively deserve criminal charge and jail time.

 :)

Except you cant get billions out of individual employees, nor can you jail them without expensive trials with high burdens of proof. Even gross incompetence is arguably only a firing offence, not a crime. Enough for reasonable doubt in most cases, anyway.

Anyway, the point is even though there's a legal fiction that companies are "people", jail is a meaningless threat to such a "person".
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1329 on: January 08, 2021, 07:03:51 am »
Boeing is made of teflon, and actually can't be convicted of anything criminal  :palm:

"...Critically, this avoids a potential criminal conviction of Boeing as a company. That’s important for Boeing as a key U.S. defense contractor; a conviction could have excluded it from future government contracts."
“The settlement sidesteps any real accountability in terms of criminal charges,” DeFazio said {U.S. House Transportation Committee Chair Peter DeFazio, D-Ore.} “From where I sit this attempt to change corporate behavior is pathetic … Senior management and the Boeing board were not held to account, and in fact, the former CEO skated out with more than $60 million."

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-agrees-to-pay-2-5b-to-settle-criminal-fraud-charges-over-737-max/
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1330 on: January 08, 2021, 07:07:23 am »
The only way to gain trust, is to punished those who did the corruption either Boeing and FAA personnels with heavy punishment like long time jail.

I guess in China, these people will face death penalty. especially the fiasco involves own citizen's life.

Offline madires

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1331 on: January 08, 2021, 10:57:26 am »
It's disappointing, but to be expected. Boeing is systemically relevant for the US.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1332 on: January 08, 2021, 03:00:47 pm »
Another thig is that Boeing knew that these sensors were critical to operation, and made the flight computers capable of recognising and handling the failure of one of the sensors, but then made this programming an expensive "add on" price option, with no explanation as to what the system does, as far as the information buying clients were given.

Looks like sales gave some pie in the sky promises, as in make it exactly the same, irrespective that the plane is now twice the weight, twice the length and twice the capacity, but just can use the same gate design, as changing it would mean training pilots again how to park, and need a new gate ramp to allow the height difference. So the gate design, fixed in the early 1970's was the criteria, and keeping the cockpit the same, but shoving more in there, thus the manual controls were downsized to the point you would need a weightlifter to turn them at all, with the control surfaces unloaded. No extra training, as the simulators did not have any scenario where MCAS was failed built in them, as it would be "new training" again, not desired.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1333 on: January 08, 2021, 03:36:05 pm »
Well, that's a good thing that Boeing got charged for this fiasco.
But where will those 2.5 billion dollars come from? Who is really going to pay in the end?

Oh and, the new CEO put a major blame on his predecessor - which was deserved - but he better not get Boeing into a similar situation again. Talk is cheap.
And what is the former CEO going to face really?
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1334 on: January 08, 2021, 03:56:59 pm »
And what is the former CEO going to face really?

Face ? How about "facing" the sky, sun bathing in private beach in covid era while sipping bozz, accompanied by rainbow in the sky and lives happily ever after ?  :-DD

-> Crash victims' families 'sickened' by fired Boeing CEO's $90m payout

... and imagine one of your loved one, like parent, spouse or children is one of the victim.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 04:01:09 pm by BravoV »
 

Online jmelson

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1335 on: January 08, 2021, 04:35:34 pm »


Indeed, what actually happened in this case - the problem was detected by the flight computers, the plane flew several legs safely (probably should have been grounded earlier, yet...), eventually the problem was isolated, and the part replaced - is what one would expect to happen. In fact, if I understand the fault correctly, I don't think it would be likely for this original failure to trigger MCAS at all, an open circuit is an outright failure that would be detected, and the sensor was otherwise providing correct readings. Ultimately (bar MCAS), the AOA vane is a non-critical and 'fault tolerant' system on the 737 - I can't easily find if the 737NG and 737MAX use the same AOA sensor part; I would guess that they do or one of very similar design, and NG has been flying in the 1000s without AOA vanes contributing to an accident for 20 years.
Well, the difference is that in all 737's up through the NG, the AOA sensor is for information ONLY, it does not control ANY flight control surface.
It may be used to provide a correction factor to the air data computer.  On the 737MAX, however, through MCAS, it DOES control the trimmable horizontal stabilizer, which moves it into a totally DIFFERENT class of sensor.  In this case, much greater attention to failure modes SHOULD have been given.
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Even if you're right and this is a complete disaster of an AOA sensor design or manufacture for some reason, failure still shouldn't have had any effect on safety of flight, even complete loss of AOA data isn't an issue for any 737 (which is why it's only doubly redundant), so I think this is just an interesting footnote to the story. If the design of the system on the Boeing side wasn't such a clusterfuck, the inconsistent readings would be detected, trigger a disagree, and the faulty data wouldn't be used for anything.
The AOA sensors on the MAX are NOT redundant!  Only one is used at a time, although through the ARINC bus both flight computers can read both sensors.  That's why there was an ($80K) optional AOA disagree light that could be purchased.  Most airlines did NOT purchase this option, as then you had to TRAIN for what the light meant.  So, the MAX has two flight computers.  Only one is actively controlling flight control surfaces at any time.  The active computer is switched every takeoff.  The output of each computer drives the instruments on one side (captain / first officer), using the sensors (AOA, air data computer, etc.) on that side.  So, while there is a "standby" redudant system of sensors, instruments and computers, it is NOT a dual redundant system.  Most of the larger and newer commercial aircraft use triple-redundant systems with voting logic, so that any component that fails can be cut out of the control loops.  Even the flight surface actuators have three separate actuators in series, so that any failure can simply be overridden by the other two.

But, not the 737.

As for the "several legs safely" comment, not quite true.  (I'm getting the two 737 crashes confused, now.)  So, first, every other flight, if the plane is left powered up, it switches which computer and sensors are being used.  (If powered off, then it starts with computer #1 again.)

So, half the flights would APPEAR fine, but they had no backup computer/sensor set to fall back on.  Then, at least one of the flights had the stick shaker and alarms going off for the ENTIRE flight!  This, of course, is totally amazing, imagine the management pressure causing a pilot to complete an entire flight leg with this level of malfunction of the aircraft!  That is clear mis-management, of course!

Jon
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 04:39:44 pm by jmelson »
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1336 on: January 08, 2021, 05:08:12 pm »
...
So, half the flights would APPEAR fine, but they had no backup computer/sensor set to fall back on.  Then, at least one of the flights had the stick shaker and alarms going off for the ENTIRE flight!  This, of course, is totally amazing, imagine the management pressure causing a pilot to complete an entire flight leg with this level of malfunction of the aircraft!  That is clear mis-management, of course!

I suggest watching the movie "Whisky Romeo Zulu" to see how mis-management goes in some countries.

At this particular airline, among other things, the pilots were "trained" to ignore Fire Alarms.

Unfortunately, it ended up in a big fireball. There were operating 737, the Classic ones.

 :)
 

Online Yansi

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1337 on: January 08, 2021, 07:42:21 pm »
Would you like to share a link to watch it somewhere with EN subtitles?
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1338 on: January 08, 2021, 09:06:34 pm »
Would you like to share a link to watch it somewhere with EN subtitles?

I have it on DVD. It is in Spanish with English subtitles. I buy my movies on discs. Maybe it is available somewhere for download or streaming.

It seems to be available on Netflix (in some countries), but I do not use Netflix.

 :)
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1339 on: January 08, 2021, 09:56:52 pm »
Well, the difference is that in all 737's up through the NG, the AOA sensor is for information ONLY, it does not control ANY flight control surface.
It may be used to provide a correction factor to the air data computer.  On the 737MAX, however, through MCAS, it DOES control the trimmable horizontal stabilizer, which moves it into a totally DIFFERENT class of sensor.  In this case, much greater attention to failure modes SHOULD have been given.

It also controls the stick shaker/stall horn, and several other computed indications like the 'eyebrows', but yes it doesn't touch any flight controls. The addition of such functionality without properly considering the risks of bad AoA data was the problem, not the AoA sensor itself. I think we are in agreement here, I just don't see the AoA sensor component failure itself as anything significant in this story, but you seem to be pushing it as a major part of the issue. The fundamental problem was the failure of the aircraft to appropriately react to that failure.

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The AOA sensors on the MAX are NOT redundant!  Only one is used at a time, although through the ARINC bus both flight computers can read both sensors.

Yeah, I misspoke here, redundant is incorrect terminology, since it can't recover from failure, only (potentially) detect it. They are (intended to be) fault tolerant, in that bad sensors will be detected, indicated, and data discarded, regardless of the fact that the ADIRU only uses one source of data at any one time. In any case, the point was that the AoA data isn't necessary for safe flight, so they could 'get away with' this methodology - as long as they correctly discard bad data - not that their detection of bad data was sufficient. MCAS is also not required for safe flight, and depends on the AOA data. As much as I think MCAS is a gigantic kludge and this sort of thing should never be acceptable in the design of an aircraft, the logic does make sense.

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  That's why there was an ($80K) optional AOA disagree light that could be purchased.  Most airlines did NOT purchase this option, as then you had to TRAIN for what the light meant.  So, the MAX has two flight computers.  Only one is actively controlling flight control surfaces at any time.  The active computer is switched every takeoff.  The output of each computer drives the instruments on one side (captain / first officer), using the sensors (AOA, air data computer, etc.) on that side.  So, while there is a "standby" redudant system of sensors, instruments and computers, it is NOT a dual redundant system.  Most of the larger and newer commercial aircraft use triple-redundant systems with voting logic, so that any component that fails can be cut out of the control loops.  Even the flight surface actuators have three separate actuators in series, so that any failure can simply be overridden by the other two.

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but then made this programming an expensive "add on" price option, with no explanation as to what the system does, as far as the information buying clients were given.

AOA DISAGREE was not an optional feature. An AOA (value) indicator was the expensive option. The problem here is that AOA DISAGREE was broken for years due to a software bug/misunderstanding that Boeing instructed Collins not to fix once it was discovered, and neglected to inform its customers or pilots about. The 737MAX was certificated with this indicator available, so for regulatory compliance, it MUST be present, but wasn't due to the unfixed bug.

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But, not the 737.

This is because these modern aircraft are fly-by-wire and depend on AoA data for safety of flight. I absolutely agree that 737MAX should never have been certificated without a modern FBW system and cohesive envelope protection. But, again, that has nothing to do with the AoA sensor itself.

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As for the "several legs safely" comment, not quite true.  (I'm getting the two 737 crashes confused, now.)  So, first, every other flight, if the plane is left powered up, it switches which computer and sensors are being used.  (If powered off, then it starts with computer #1 again.)

So, half the flights would APPEAR fine, but they had no backup computer/sensor set to fall back on.  Then, at least one of the flights had the stick shaker and alarms going off for the ENTIRE flight!  This, of course, is totally amazing, imagine the management pressure causing a pilot to complete an entire flight leg with this level of malfunction of the aircraft!  That is clear mis-management, of course!

What I'm talking about is that the Lion Air aircraft flew several legs with a faulty AoA sensor. This was detected, logged by the crews, and looked into by maintenance. None of these flights had any safety issue because the failure was a hard one - the resolver failed open as temperature fell, the flight computers detected this and knew the data was bad, so it didn't lead to any safety (or otherwise) issues. Eventually maintenance got around to replacing the sensor with the accident one that had a calibration bias. It was after this replacement that the flight you're mentioning occurred, where the crew experienced the same conditions as the accident flight, and just managed to deal with it better. This just shows that AoA *failure* is not a problem for this aircraft, the problem was that the sensor appeared to be functional as far as the flight computers could tell, but was producing biased indications, which wasn't something the Boeing design handled properly.

Don't get me wrong here. The level of incompetence, malfeasance on Boeing's part, and the extent of regulatory capture of the FAA is staggering, and the people who were documented to have mislead customers and pushed to cover this up absolutely deserve jail time. I just don't want people to think that AoA sensors failing is something we should really care about - because it is going to happen and the systems must be designed to tolerate any sort of failure, including a bias like this.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 10:06:38 pm by ve7xen »
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1340 on: January 08, 2021, 11:17:59 pm »
Don't forget the old adage from Segal's law- "with two clocks one can never know the correct time". The probability proof shows redundant watches (sensors) are useless.
You need a majority vote, one reason Airbus uses three pitot tubes and even then, having identical physical configuration means they like to fail the same way, bad heater design and ice included.
AF447 crash shows automation is lost without accurate sensor input. Try writing S/W that deals with sensor failures, it is a lot of math and at some point the machine needs the pilot to decide what action to take.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1341 on: January 08, 2021, 11:59:29 pm »
Don't forget the old adage from Segal's law- "with two clocks one can never know the correct time". The probability proof shows redundant watches (sensors) are useless.
You need a majority vote, one reason Airbus uses three pitot tubes and even then, having identical physical configuration means they like to fail the same way, bad heater design and ice included.
AF447 crash shows automation is lost without accurate sensor input. Try writing S/W that deals with sensor failures, it is a lot of math and at some point the machine needs the pilot to decide what action to take.

You need a majority vote if you need valid data for safe flight, as in an FBW aircraft, and especially for IAS which is quite critical both for manual and automatic flight in a normal regime. The concept of 737MAX design was (and still is) that AoA data (and by extension, MCAS) is not essential to the safety of flight, which I think is a fair assessment. Losing it changes effectively nothing except during approach to stall, which a transport aircraft should never encounter. If you accept that premise, two sensors is sufficient to detect a disagree and disable any (automated, at least) uses of the data. This is the basis under which the aircraft will be returned to service.

AF447 is almost the opposite case as 737MAX - the aircraft detected the problem, and degraded the automation as necessary to make safe recovery possible - this is exactly what should have happened with MAX (minus the inappropriate pilot response and ensuing crash, of course - but in the MAX case this wouldn't have changed the flight characteristics or indications in any meaningful way).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 12:02:19 am by ve7xen »
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Offline madires

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1342 on: January 09, 2021, 12:55:50 pm »
Yes and no! ;) The 737MAX can be operated without MCAS. But if you tell pilots that the 737MAX behaves the same like the 737NG MCAS becomes a critical system. WIthout MCAS the pilots would experience a non expected behavior in specific critical situations.
 
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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1343 on: January 09, 2021, 01:10:39 pm »
Yes and no! ;) The 737MAX can be operated without MCAS. But if you tell pilots that the 737MAX behaves the same like the 737NG MCAS becomes a critical system. WIthout MCAS the pilots would experience a non expected behavior in specific critical situations.

but I'd think in a critical situation a plane behaving different is much preferred to a plane that behaves unpredictable
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1344 on: January 09, 2021, 01:20:39 pm »
Don't forget the old adage from Segal's law- "with two clocks one can never know the correct time". The probability proof shows redundant watches (sensors) are useless.
You need a majority vote, one reason Airbus uses three pitot tubes and even then, having identical physical configuration means they like to fail the same way, bad heater design and ice included.
AF447 crash shows automation is lost without accurate sensor input. Try writing S/W that deals with sensor failures, it is a lot of math and at some point the machine needs the pilot to decide what action to take.

yep, there have been cases where the one functional sensor was ignored because the two other sensors failed with the same wrong value


 

Offline Nusa

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Re: ++ another Boeing 737 down ++
« Reply #1345 on: January 09, 2021, 02:21:59 pm »
another one down (09 Jan 2021)

Boeing 737-524
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/world/asia/indonesia-plane.html

"another one" is misleading, since this thread is about the MAX.

The 737-500's were produced from 1990-1999. This particular one is a 27-year-old former United Airlines plane (no major operators still use them in the US). Way too early to say what went wrong.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20210109-0
https://avherald.com/h?article=4e18553c
 
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Online jmelson

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1346 on: January 09, 2021, 07:37:56 pm »
I think we are in agreement here, I just don't see the AoA sensor component failure itself as anything significant in this story, but you seem to be pushing it as a major part of the issue.
I think that may have been some other commenter.  As a delicate vane sticking out the side of the aircraft, the AOA vane is quite susceptibel to damage, they get broken all the time during ground handling and jetway movement.  And, the aircraft systems should be able to deal with crazy readings.  If the vane is banged, it can easily give a jammed or just incorrect reading.
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AOA DISAGREE was not an optional feature. An AOA (value) indicator was the expensive option. The problem here is that AOA DISAGREE was broken for years due to a software bug/misunderstanding that Boeing instructed Collins not to fix once it was discovered, and neglected to inform its customers or pilots about. The 737MAX was certificated with this indicator available, so for regulatory compliance, it MUST be present, but wasn't due to the unfixed bug.
Thanks for this clarification, I think my incorrect understanding of this has been coming from multiple sources, so I'm not the only one who got it wrong.
OK, so what, exactly, is the Collins bug on AOA disagree?  Does it NEVER light up?  Or, only in certain cases, but not this one?
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This is because these modern aircraft are fly-by-wire and depend on AoA data for safety of flight. I absolutely agree that 737MAX should never have been certificated without a modern FBW system and cohesive envelope protection.
Well, I partially agree.  It would have been a BETTER, and safer, plane with a triple-redundant fly by wire control system, 3 AOA sensors, etc.  But that would have increased costs quite a bit.  If the existing flight control system had a working AOA disagree and MCAS would not allow the stabilizer trim to automatically go into extreme positions, I don't really see a problem with the 737MAX.  Sure, it IS old-school, but there are a TON of them flying pretty safely all over the world (since they got that nasty rudder actualtor issue solved about 30 years ago.)

Jon
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1347 on: January 10, 2021, 12:00:56 am »
Quote
I think that may have been some other commenter.  As a delicate vane sticking out the side of the aircraft, the AOA vane is quite susceptibel to damage, they get broken all the time during ground handling and jetway movement.  And, the aircraft systems should be able to deal with crazy readings.  If the vane is banged, it can easily give a jammed or just incorrect reading.
Apologies then!

Thanks for this clarification, I think my incorrect understanding of this has been coming from multiple sources, so I'm not the only one who got it wrong.
OK, so what, exactly, is the Collins bug on AOA disagree?  Does it NEVER light up?  Or, only in certain cases, but not this one?

Basically it incorrectly got tied to the paid AOA indicator, which is where the confusion comes from, I think. This wasn't what the design intended, but due to a misunderstanding/miscommunication between Boeing and Collins on a related trouble report, it is what ended up being implemented. Collins actually found this bug some years ago, and informed Boeing, but it was requested that Collins hold off on a fix until a future anticipated firmware update or some such weak reasoning, and Boeing never informed its customers. This is documented in the Congressional report, I haven't really seen it discussed much elsewhere.

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Well, I partially agree.  It would have been a BETTER, and safer, plane with a triple-redundant fly by wire control system, 3 AOA sensors, etc.  But that would have increased costs quite a bit.  If the existing flight control system had a working AOA disagree and MCAS would not allow the stabilizer trim to automatically go into extreme positions, I don't really see a problem with the 737MAX.  Sure, it IS old-school, but there are a TON of them flying pretty safely all over the world (since they got that nasty rudder actualtor issue solved about 30 years ago.)

Fair enough, I think 737MAX will be safe once the required changes are done, notwithstanding some other failures due to Boeing's just massive bungling of this project.

However, I strongly believe that this concept of 'update the 50 year old airframe on the same type certificate under relaxed rules and with minimal pilot training' is fundamentally flawed. It seems to create perverse incentives, discouraging safety improvements while simultaneously encouraging nasty (and fundamentally useless, other than to satisfy the similarity requirement) hacks like MCAS that are far more likely to lead to design flaws, as they aren't considered as part of a cohesive design process, but as a tacked on standalone project. As the industry matures and these old designs get older and older, we need to do something to push the industry forward without bandaid fix on top of bandaid fix. The 737NG already has some...weird...design choices due to this, and MAX just takes it too far. What next? Wasn't such a big deal 30 years ago, but now this design is over 50 years old and a lot has been learned since that should be integrated into every new plane coming off an assembly line. There was a lot else going on at Boeing that was problematic, but this is where I think the regulators really need to step up and redesign their type certification scheme.
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Offline Nusa

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1348 on: January 10, 2021, 01:30:11 am »
Fair enough, I think 737MAX will be safe once the required changes are done, notwithstanding some other failures due to Boeing's just massive bungling of this project.

You seem to be out of date. The FAA lifted the grounding order in November, subject to a list of fixes for each aircraft and training for pilots. American, with 24 MAX-8's, has been flying revenue flights since December 29th. United took delivery of its 15th MAX-9 in December and is planning to start flying them on Feb 11th. Southwest, with 31 MAX-8's, is planning to resume using them in March.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1349 on: January 10, 2021, 03:00:46 am »
Fair enough, I think 737MAX will be safe once the required changes are done, notwithstanding some other failures due to Boeing's just massive bungling of this project.

You seem to be out of date. The FAA lifted the grounding order in November, subject to a list of fixes for each aircraft and training for pilots. American, with 24 MAX-8's, has been flying revenue flights since December 29th. United took delivery of its 15th MAX-9 in December and is planning to start flying them on Feb 11th. Southwest, with 31 MAX-8's, is planning to resume using them in March.

I'm not sure how my comment is out of date, it doesn't relate to regulatory action at all, but was a comment on the safety of the aircraft itself...which comes from changes done to the aircraft itself, not the regulator requiring them.

The US FAA is the only major regulatory body to have ungrounded the 737MAX (and I am not in America); it remains grounded in Europe, Canada, Australia, China and I think most other countries, though that's expected to change in the next couple of months.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 03:02:19 am by ve7xen »
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