Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 86030 times)

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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #300 on: March 13, 2019, 09:23:42 am »
Right, I think the video explains it. In short, and what I've read elsewhere: The jet engines were not designed for this plane, but they used it anyway, maybe to save some money. So it doesn't really fly stable without software correction, because they are mounted at the wrong position. The software depends on sensor inputs, and I've read these AOA sensors are not redundant and can fail. If this happens, the pilot has to understand that this is the problem, and then do 3 non-obvious steps to counteract that the nose dips and that it falls out of the sky.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #301 on: March 13, 2019, 10:45:14 am »
There has to be a bug in the MCAS software because in the previous crash both air speed (pitot) and AoA sensors had malfunctioned in the flight previous to the crash and were replaced. Four new sensors can't fail all at once twice in a 5 months period. Either the MCAS software has a bug and misreads the sensors data, like a bad pointer or something, or if it really was a sensor malfunction, the MCAS should disengage and put an alarm to the pilot when the data it's getting from the sensors does not make sense, instead of say nothing and keep pushing the nose down.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #302 on: March 13, 2019, 12:55:30 pm »
I just hope all the USA pilots are by now well trained to disable in a sec that bloody MCAS POS.
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #303 on: March 13, 2019, 04:26:26 pm »
Canada has now banned the 737 Max as well.
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Offline MT

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #304 on: March 13, 2019, 05:12:53 pm »
As of today the following countries has grounded the 737 MAX.

Argentina,Australia,Austria,Belgium,Brazil,Bulgaria,Cayman Islands,China,Canada,Croatia,Cyprus,Czech Republic
Denmark,Estonia,Ethiopia,Finland,France,Germany,Greece,Hungary,Iceland,India,Indonesia,Ireland,Italy,Latvia
Liechtenstein,Lithuania,Luxembourg,Malaysia,Malta,Mexico,Mongolia,Morocco,Netherlands,Norway,Oman,Poland
Portugal,Romania,Singapore,Slovakia,Slovenia,South Africa,South Korea,Spain,Sweden,Switzerland,Turkey,United Kingdom
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #305 on: March 13, 2019, 06:15:10 pm »
US almost stands alone. Looks like the CEO of Boeing called his "friend" Trump.
Now if something does go wrong, that will have huge consequences.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/politics/donald-trump-boeing-faa/index.html
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #306 on: March 13, 2019, 06:35:43 pm »
Trump is reported to have lobbied Vietnam on the 737 Max so I'm not sure what arrangement he has with Boeing though if Trump is anything it is money hungry. 


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Offline Nusa

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #307 on: March 13, 2019, 06:45:21 pm »
As of today the following countries has grounded the 737 MAX.

Argentina,Australia,Austria,Belgium,Brazil,Bulgaria,Cayman Islands,China,Canada,Croatia,Cyprus,Czech Republic
Denmark,Estonia,Ethiopia,Finland,France,Germany,Greece,Hungary,Iceland,India,Indonesia,Ireland,Italy,Latvia
Liechtenstein,Lithuania,Luxembourg,Malaysia,Malta,Mexico,Mongolia,Morocco,Netherlands,Norway,Oman,Poland
Portugal,Romania,Singapore,Slovakia,Slovenia,South Africa,South Korea,Spain,Sweden,Switzerland,Turkey,United Kingdom
Most of those did not separately and independently make that decision, they're simply part of the EU authority which made the decision for all of them. It's like listing all 50+ state/territory governments of the USA whenever the Federal government makes a global decision. Making the list TLDR isn't terribly helpful, unless your intent is to obscure the non-EU countries.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #308 on: March 13, 2019, 06:51:16 pm »
USA now also grounds the max.
Wise decision IMO.
 

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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #310 on: March 13, 2019, 06:56:57 pm »
Well done!

Quote
Trump praised the airline manufacturer as a “great company” and said he hoped that Boeing will come up “very quickly” with answers to what caused the crash in Ethiopia, but “until they do the planes are grounded.”

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 10:44:01 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline Bud

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #311 on: March 13, 2019, 07:13:01 pm »
Canada has now banned the 737 Max as well.

Have they? Just this morning driving to work CBC radio said the transportation minister said he won't.
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Offline boffin

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #312 on: March 13, 2019, 07:47:00 pm »
Canada has now banned the 737 Max as well.

Have they? Just this morning driving to work CBC radio said the transportation minister said he won't.

Yes, Canada banned this morning, shortly followed by the United States


For Air Canada it's a giant PITA as the B38M represents about 25% of their narrowbody fleet; and I wouldn't want to be flying domestically as I suspect there will be a lot of cancellations and re-routing

Narrowbody fleet

70  Boeing A319/320/321
24  Boeing 737-MAX8
18  Embraer 190

What it likely means is that long-haul thin flights (like Halifax/StJohns -> London, Vancouver/Calgary -> Hawaii) really don't have much of a replacement short of them putting widebodies on the routes. From what I heard, Air Canada was one of the last 737-MAX8s to leave the UK prior to the grounding.



WestJet it's a smaller percentage
109  Boeing 737-600/700/800
13  Boeing 737-MAX8


Neither AC's nor WS's  discount arms operate the B38M
 

Offline MT

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #313 on: March 13, 2019, 08:33:41 pm »
As of today the following countries has grounded the 737 MAX.

Argentina,Australia,Austria,Belgium,Brazil,Bulgaria,Cayman Islands,China,Canada,Croatia,Cyprus,Czech Republic
Denmark,Estonia,Ethiopia,Finland,France,Germany,Greece,Hungary,Iceland,India,Indonesia,Ireland,Italy,Latvia
Liechtenstein,Lithuania,Luxembourg,Malaysia,Malta,Mexico,Mongolia,Morocco,Netherlands,Norway,Oman,Poland
Portugal,Romania,Singapore,Slovakia,Slovenia,South Africa,South Korea,Spain,Sweden,Switzerland,Turkey,United Kingdom, USA.
Most of those did not separately and independently make that decision, they're simply part of the EU authority which made the decision for all of them. It's like listing all 50+ state/territory governments of the USA whenever the Federal government makes a global decision. Making the list TLDR isn't terribly helpful, unless your intent is to obscure the non-EU countries.
I have no intent of obscure anything for anyone. STOP construct accusations!

https://nairobinews.nation.co.ke/editors-picks/us-government-warned-citizens-avoid-ethiopian-airport
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #314 on: March 13, 2019, 08:35:05 pm »
Boeing themselves have now grounded the 737 Max, making individual country decisions irrelevant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47562727

Quote
Boeing has grounded its entire global fleet of 737 Max aircraft after investigators uncovered new evidence at the scene of the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash.

The US plane-maker said it would suspend all 371 of the aircraft.

The Federal Aviation Administration said fresh evidence as well as newly refined satellite data prompted the decision to temporarily ban the jets.

The FAA had previously held out while many countries banned the aircraft.

The crash on Sunday in Addis Ababa killed 157 people.

It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in five months after one crashed over Indonesia in October, claiming 189 lives.

Boeing said it "continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 Max".

However, it said that after consultation with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board - which is conducting an investigation into the Ethiopian Airlines crash - it had decided to ground the flights "out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety".

The FAA said: "The grounding will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft's flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders."
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 08:38:31 pm by Gyro »
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #315 on: March 13, 2019, 08:41:55 pm »
USA now also grounds the max.
Wise decision IMO.


I wonder if the decision to ground by the FAA is in response to data from the CVR and FDR.  I have to believe that both recorders have been downloaded and a preliminary (very preliminary) review has been done and that the data is indicating a similarity with Lionair that relates to MCAS.

One thing that is new here is that numerous reports of 737 Max pilots to weirdness when autopilot is turned on but in the past we were told MCAS only activates when AP is off so perhaps there's other flight control software problems beyond MCAS or MCAS plays a role while autopilot is engaged as well.  Honestly, we can put to bed the idea that this isn't a fly-by-wire AC even if it's not fly-by-wire by the conventional definition -- if the computer can wrestle control in AP or when AP is off AND the only way to prevent that is to turn systems off the idea that this is a stick flown AC is laughable. 

So, in the past we were told MCAS only activated when being stick flown but the new data says the same or similar problems can also occur on AP.

Boeing is going to eat this one big time!


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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #316 on: March 13, 2019, 08:44:47 pm »
Boeing themselves have now grounded the 737 Max, making individual country decisions irrelevant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47562727

Quote
Boeing has grounded its entire global fleet of 737 Max aircraft after investigators uncovered new evidence at the scene of the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash.

The US plane-maker said it would suspend all 371 of the aircraft.

The Federal Aviation Administration said fresh evidence as well as newly refined satellite data prompted the decision to temporarily ban the jets.

The FAA had previously held out while many countries banned the aircraft.

The crash on Sunday in Addis Ababa killed 157 people.

It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in five months after one crashed over Indonesia in October, claiming 189 lives.

Boeing said it "continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 Max".

However, it said that after consultation with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board - which is conducting an investigation into the Ethiopian Airlines crash - it had decided to ground the flights "out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft's safety".

The FAA said: "The grounding will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft's flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders."


Ahh, so it looks like the investigation has already revealed information that points to a problem with the AC.  I would not want to be in the Boeing PR department right now...


Brian
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #317 on: March 13, 2019, 08:45:53 pm »
Boeing themselves have now grounded the 737 Max, making individual country decisions irrelevant.
They should have done that much earlier IMO, now it is more a joke since 3/4 of the world already took that decision for them.
 

Offline MasterTech

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #318 on: March 13, 2019, 08:54:21 pm »
USA now also grounds the max.
Wise decision IMO.


I wonder if the decision to ground by the FAA is in response to data from the CVR and FDR.  I have to believe that both recorders have been downloaded and a preliminary (very preliminary) review has been done and that the data is indicating a similarity with Lionair that relates to MCAS.


It’s due to ADSB flight path data collected from satellites, that probably has more points that what is available to the public right now from flightaware. This is what made Canada ground them, and now the FAA, probably the pattern is the same as the indonesian plane.

As to the black boxes, ethiopian authorities wants them investigated in EU territory as they dont trust the US, however germany declined saying they dont have the software to decode them
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 08:56:08 pm by MasterTech »
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #319 on: March 13, 2019, 09:05:09 pm »
New black boxes, who can read them?
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #320 on: March 13, 2019, 09:13:46 pm »
One thing that is new here is that numerous reports of 737 Max pilots to weirdness when autopilot is turned on but in the past we were told MCAS only activates when AP is off so perhaps there's other flight control software problems beyond MCAS or MCAS plays a role while autopilot is engaged as well.  Honestly, we can put to bed the idea that this isn't a fly-by-wire AC even if it's not fly-by-wire by the conventional definition -- if the computer can wrestle control in AP or when AP is off AND the only way to prevent that is to turn systems off the idea that this is a stick flown AC is laughable. 

So, in the past we were told MCAS only activated when being stick flown but the new data says the same or similar problems can also occur on AP.

The 737 (everything from the -100 to MAX10) is not a fly by wire aircraft.  The difference is how the control surfaces are connected to the control inputs.  In the case of all 737s it's done mechanically/hydraulically, and the stick directly controls the hydraulics.  That's not to say there's aren't systems like the AP or MCAS (stick shaker) that can't control the stick.

On the A320s, the input is purely a joystick into an electronic brain, aka fly-by-wire; which then actuates electro-hydraulic systems.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #321 on: March 13, 2019, 09:20:11 pm »
Equally interesting is the Atlas Air 767 crash two weeks ago; where they've now released some of the FDR info


...Also, about this time, the FDR data indicated that some small vertical accelerations consistent with the airplane entering turbulence. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up. The airplane then pitched nose down over the next 18 seconds to about 49° in response to nose-down elevator deflection. (Editorial Note: the sentence originally read: "and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input." and was later edited by the NTSB). The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.
...


AVHerald.com as always has much more information.
Atlas Air 3591: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c&opt=0
Ethiopian 302: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a&opt=0
Lion Air 610: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724/0009&opt=0


 

Offline Bud

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #322 on: March 13, 2019, 09:54:36 pm »
Canada has now banned the 737 Max as well.

Have they? Just this morning driving to work CBC radio said the transportation minister said he won't.

Yes, Canada banned this morning, shortly followed by the United States
Followed by. Yes tell me about it. CBC was reporting all night long yesterday and this morning that the minister "does not have plans to ground the planes", quote/unquote. This guy is full of shit . Let me offer an explanation: this piece of shit minister heard that the US will do it.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #323 on: March 13, 2019, 10:05:54 pm »
Equally interesting is the Atlas Air 767 crash two weeks ago; where they've now released some of the FDR info

There's a video of that crash:


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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #324 on: March 13, 2019, 10:19:48 pm »
One thing that is new here is that numerous reports of 737 Max pilots to weirdness when autopilot is turned on but in the past we were told MCAS only activates when AP is off so perhaps there's other flight control software problems beyond MCAS or MCAS plays a role while autopilot is engaged as well.  Honestly, we can put to bed the idea that this isn't a fly-by-wire AC even if it's not fly-by-wire by the conventional definition -- if the computer can wrestle control in AP or when AP is off AND the only way to prevent that is to turn systems off the idea that this is a stick flown AC is laughable. 

So, in the past we were told MCAS only activated when being stick flown but the new data says the same or similar problems can also occur on AP.

The 737 (everything from the -100 to MAX10) is not a fly by wire aircraft.  The difference is how the control surfaces are connected to the control inputs.  In the case of all 737s it's done mechanically/hydraulically, and the stick directly controls the hydraulics.  That's not to say there's aren't systems like the AP or MCAS (stick shaker) that can't control the stick.

On the A320s, the input is purely a joystick into an electronic brain, aka fly-by-wire; which then actuates electro-hydraulic systems.

And once again this is a distinction without a difference.  I've worked on AC (USAF) and know a thing or two about them and, yes, there is a definition related to fly-by-wire and the 737 does not meet that definition -- however, if the computer can still override the pilots inputs to the stick this distinction is largely irrelevant.  The pertinent point is that a computer is controlling things and it makes little difference if the pilot has a direct connection to the control surfaces or if the computer is in between -- if the computer can wrestle control from the pilot the end effect is the same.  In fact, the idea that a pilot has direct control of the control surfaces on a 737 is laughable anyway as there's a hydraulic system in between -- not like AC where the yoke directly connects to the control surfaces with cables.  Look, we've been down this semantic road before and its tiring to continue the pretense that an AC like the 737 isn't controlled by computer even if a formal definition would argue it isn't.  It is a sure bet that most if not all the update Boeing plans is SOFTWARE.


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