Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 178297 times)

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1225 on: December 16, 2019, 04:24:01 pm »

[...]
How are they going to get out of this?

By spending the time, care, attention, and professionalism that they didn't muster the first time round.  They cannot regain trust any other way.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1226 on: December 16, 2019, 05:02:12 pm »
I don't think many people will want to fly in a 737 MAX never more. I would not want.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1227 on: December 16, 2019, 05:25:18 pm »
This was to be expected.

That's gotten really bad for Boeing. How are they going to get out of this?

Bribe FAA a bit more?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1228 on: December 16, 2019, 06:22:57 pm »
They don't need to bribe FAA. FAA and Boeing are in the same bed at this point. They both need to regain public trust. If FAA rushed and made another mistake, then it would be a real problem. So far it seems like Boeing stock is going along fine. Increase in executive bonuses this year for the good job in fixing MAX?

It seems like some kinda noise in the press and social media when people eventually start seeing "Boeing MAX" on their tickets is unavoidable, at this point. It's not like the old days when we had just live TV broadcast. So I think there is still some sort of PR challenge ahead.

Quote
I don't think many people will want to fly in a 737 MAX never more. I would not want.
If I were given a choice, I would certainly feel strange choosing a MAX, even if the statistics say it is safer than walking and chewing gum. But a choice between a direct flight on a MAX or a layover might be all it takes? I wonder how many people flew on a MAX before the grounding who don't even realize it? I didn't pay attention to plane models, before. I think confidence in Boeing's credit line will get people back on the planes. Heck, if Boeing is going to pay my family million dollars for my death, maybe I'll sign up for the first flight.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 06:49:17 pm by KL27x »
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1229 on: December 16, 2019, 08:44:30 pm »
It's a whole new level scary  :(

Shutdown likely for 12,000 employees in the region. A lousy Christmas for them and suppliers too.

FAA probes 737 MAX production
"The manager, Ed Pierson, drew a link between faulty Angle of Attack sensors in two recent 737 MAX crashes that killed 346 people and what he called a “chaotic and alarming state” inside Boeing’s factory that undermined quality and safety.
“It is alarming that these sensors failed on multiple flights mere months after the airplanes were manufactured in a factory experiencing frequent wiring problems and functional test issues,” Pierson said at the hearing.
“I witnessed a factory in chaos,” he said. "

Boeing removed copper ground straps in the 787's fuel tanks... carbon fiber I guess lightning arcs across fasteners in the fumes, so they added a nitrogen gas system. Just silly complicated stupid way to save bucks on safety.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1230 on: December 16, 2019, 09:16:43 pm »
They don't need to bribe FAA. FAA and Boeing are in the same bed at this point. They both need to regain public trust. If FAA rushed and made another mistake, then it would be a real problem. So far it seems like Boeing stock is going along fine. Increase in executive bonuses this year for the good job in fixing MAX?

It seems like some kinda noise in the press and social media when people eventually start seeing "Boeing MAX" on their tickets is unavoidable, at this point. It's not like the old days when we had just live TV broadcast. So I think there is still some sort of PR challenge ahead.

Quote
I don't think many people will want to fly in a 737 MAX never more. I would not want.
If I were given a choice, I would certainly feel strange choosing a MAX, even if the statistics say it is safer than walking and chewing gum. But a choice between a direct flight on a MAX or a layover might be all it takes? I wonder how many people flew on a MAX before the grounding who don't even realize it? I didn't pay attention to plane models, before. I think confidence in Boeing's credit line will get people back on the planes. Heck, if Boeing is going to pay my family million dollars for my death, maybe I'll sign up for the first flight.
So you will give your life just for the "fiats" printed by FED? :o

They have been in beed for a long time but now neither side wants to sleep on the wet cold spot on the beed sheet.
Its about optics, what the dumbed down public is gonna be exposed to, a crash is difficult to cover up for so the optics are adjusted dependent on the things need to be covered up in the aftermath.

Well,apparently 787 workers dont want to fly on what they build.  :-//
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/boeing787-a-motherfucker!(words-from-boeing-assembler)/

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:25:06 pm by MT »
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1231 on: December 16, 2019, 10:06:15 pm »
It's a whole new level scary  :(

Shutdown likely for 12,000 employees in the region. A lousy Christmas for them and suppliers too.


and airlines using 737, they all made plans expecting to get new planes and made contracts to sell off old planes etc.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1232 on: December 16, 2019, 10:09:26 pm »
It's a whole new level scary  :(

Shutdown likely for 12,000 employees in the region. A lousy Christmas for them and suppliers too.

FAA probes 737 MAX production
"The manager, Ed Pierson, drew a link between faulty Angle of Attack sensors in two recent 737 MAX crashes that killed 346 people and what he called a “chaotic and alarming state” inside Boeing’s factory that undermined quality and safety.
“It is alarming that these sensors failed on multiple flights mere months after the airplanes were manufactured in a factory experiencing frequent wiring problems and functional test issues,” Pierson said at the hearing.
“I witnessed a factory in chaos,” he said. "

Boeing removed copper ground straps in the 787's fuel tanks... carbon fiber I guess lightning arcs across fasteners in the fumes, so they added a nitrogen gas system. Just silly complicated stupid way to save bucks on safety.
Nitrogen and other fuel tank inerting systems have been required on apparently most airliners since 2008. As the article you link says, the nitrogen system was one of the three remaining safety components. So ALL 787s have it, not just the ones without the copper foil! Read carefully, mmkay? ;)
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1233 on: December 17, 2019, 12:36:29 am »
A shut-down of the 737 MAX production line is in the wind....  Will it happen?
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1234 on: December 17, 2019, 12:43:27 am »
Boeing have still been making the MAX (though since the grounding they've reduced production by about 20%) - which begs the question: Where do you put them all?

Answer:  Wherever they can find the space. (They can still be flown - but ONLY to a "parking" destination.)

(That did make me smile)

 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1235 on: December 17, 2019, 01:21:34 am »
Boeing could take 10 of these MAX planes sitting in parking lots, and loan them out.
... to stunt pilots they sponsor to put on air shows, doing dare-devil stuff.

Bad taste? Definitely. I still want to see it. And (as long as they could perform some cool stuff in close formation and don't crash, fingers crossed) that would instill some confidence to me, in the least. It's irrational, but seeing is believing.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1236 on: December 17, 2019, 01:47:40 am »
How are they going to get out of this?
By spending the time, care, attention, and professionalism that they didn't muster the first time round.  They cannot regain trust any other way.

Have doubt if Boeing will prioritize that path 1st, as it will take too much time and will piss off the share holders big time.

Only smart & quick maneuvering will help, and imo this already started, like the action on increasing the pressure at Airbus thru international tariff war, which is quite successful as WTO basically punished Airbus (EURO).

Next step is to do similarly to what NRA have been done for decades at the US senates, not very sure how this move extend to, maybe declare or campaigning "nationalism" by pressuring US airlines not to buy Airbus for initial stage ?

Or if the current administration shows a big chance will get elected in 2020, just give a fair share to one of the POTUS's family member and give a seat at the board of directors, this will be an "ideal" case as the orange dude is one of the best salesman on earth, and also has an ideal leveraging power on this matter internationally.

Yeah, I'm dreaming.  :-DD

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1237 on: December 17, 2019, 03:19:28 am »
... Boeing removed copper ground straps in the 787's fuel tanks... carbon fiber I guess lightning arcs across fasteners in the fumes, so they added a nitrogen gas system. Just silly complicated stupid way to save bucks on safety.
Nitrogen and other fuel tank inerting systems have been required on apparently most airliners since 2008. As the article you link says, the nitrogen system was one of the three remaining safety components. So ALL 787s have it, not just the ones without the copper foil! Read carefully, mmkay? ;)

I didn't know aluminium-body aircraft first got nitrogen gas "inerting system" in the fuel tanks, I thought it was only newer for carbon-fiber bodies. Lightning can't generate arcs inside a metal fuel tank as a Faraday cage.
It was the fuel tank level-sensor as an ignition source, implicated in TWA Flight 800's center tank explosion, that changed the rules and caused a fiasco for existing aircraft.
Carbon-fiber fuel tanks introduce a new risk but what's a little arcing inside the tank between fasteners...
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-98A.pdf
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1238 on: December 17, 2019, 11:03:55 am »
I didn't know aluminium-body aircraft first got nitrogen gas "inerting system" in the fuel tanks, I thought it was only newer for carbon-fiber bodies. Lightning can't generate arcs inside a metal fuel tank as a Faraday cage.
It was the fuel tank level-sensor as an ignition source, implicated in TWA Flight 800's center tank explosion, that changed the rules and caused a fiasco for existing aircraft.
Carbon-fiber fuel tanks introduce a new risk but what's a little arcing inside the tank between fasteners...
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-98A.pdf
Not just carbon fiber planes/tanks:
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=4b9ea1a9-bfd6-4967-9ee9-6d6c47298243
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1239 on: December 22, 2019, 02:42:55 pm »
Perhaps not just the MCAS system at fault. Boing pilot talking aboyt thrust control systems going berserk as well.
https://youtu.be/skbUDZb1Ybs
 

Online chris_leyson

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1240 on: December 22, 2019, 03:37:05 pm »
If the auto throttle software doesn't work because it's been overridden by something else that takes higher priorty then it's no wonder you can't manually trim the aircraft. Maybe a lot of pilots are used to the auto throttle doing it for you and intuitively wouldn't know what to do if the automation failed because they have zero hours flying manually. Automation for the most part is there to make the pilots job easier but when it doesn't work and you don't have enough hours flying manually then accidents happen.

Talking of
Quote
thrust control systems going berserk
, Boeings Starliner just did the same thing but they got it home in the end.
 

Offline iMo

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1242 on: December 23, 2019, 08:03:18 pm »
https://www.space.com/boeing-ceo-muilenburg-resigns.html

Yep. I thought it would have happened earlier.

And now what... is Boeing going to also change names? ::)
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1243 on: December 23, 2019, 09:53:43 pm »
I've seen many times a scumbag CEO cause irreparable damage to a corporation's culture, ethics and values. It takes years to turn it around, if even possible. Some companies never recover.
It's strange Muilenburg is an engineer but sure didn't show it, on any level. His replacement Calhoun's background is finance/marketing, yup sure he can turn things around  :palm:
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1244 on: December 23, 2019, 11:37:02 pm »
^If he is a good listener/leader, the background is perhaps not super critical at that level.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1245 on: December 24, 2019, 12:04:43 am »
Who's going to stick out their neck and speak for safety with added costs, and risk losing their aerospace career? It's going to be hack and slash cuts until the 737 Max flies again.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1246 on: December 25, 2019, 05:19:06 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
 
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1247 on: December 25, 2019, 07:48:17 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1248 on: December 25, 2019, 08:13:00 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...

Don't forget that CEO's have much higher rates of psychopathy than general public. Whether this is the case here is unknown, but it's fairly likely they are just fine despite being a part of killing people by negligence. If this wasn't the case, he would have likely left ages ago, or not taken the task at all.
 
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1249 on: December 25, 2019, 12:35:19 pm »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...

Don't forget that CEO's have much higher rates of psychopathy than general public. Whether this is the case here is unknown, but it's fairly likely they are just fine despite being a part of killing people by negligence. If this wasn't the case, he would have likely left ages ago, or not taken the task at all.
I was talking about the emotional pain coming from losing his highly paid position.
Of course lower levels of emotional empathy (closing to psychopathy) is to be expected of such positions.
 


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