Author Topic: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'  (Read 78682 times)

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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1250 on: December 22, 2019, 02:42:55 pm »
Perhaps not just the MCAS system at fault. Boing pilot talking aboyt thrust control systems going berserk as well.
https://youtu.be/skbUDZb1Ybs
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1251 on: December 22, 2019, 03:37:05 pm »
If the auto throttle software doesn't work because it's been overridden by something else that takes higher priorty then it's no wonder you can't manually trim the aircraft. Maybe a lot of pilots are used to the auto throttle doing it for you and intuitively wouldn't know what to do if the automation failed because they have zero hours flying manually. Automation for the most part is there to make the pilots job easier but when it doesn't work and you don't have enough hours flying manually then accidents happen.

Talking of
Quote
thrust control systems going berserk
, Boeings Starliner just did the same thing but they got it home in the end.
 

Offline imo

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1253 on: December 23, 2019, 08:03:18 pm »
https://www.space.com/boeing-ceo-muilenburg-resigns.html

Yep. I thought it would have happened earlier.

And now what... is Boeing going to also change names? ::)
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1254 on: December 23, 2019, 09:53:43 pm »
I've seen many times a scumbag CEO cause irreparable damage to a corporation's culture, ethics and values. It takes years to turn it around, if even possible. Some companies never recover.
It's strange Muilenburg is an engineer but sure didn't show it, on any level. His replacement Calhoun's background is finance/marketing, yup sure he can turn things around  :palm:
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1255 on: December 23, 2019, 11:37:02 pm »
^If he is a good listener/leader, the background is perhaps not super critical at that level.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1256 on: December 24, 2019, 12:04:43 am »
Who's going to stick out their neck and speak for safety with added costs, and risk losing their aerospace career? It's going to be hack and slash cuts until the 737 Max flies again.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1257 on: December 25, 2019, 05:19:06 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
 
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1258 on: December 25, 2019, 07:48:17 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1259 on: December 25, 2019, 08:13:00 am »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...

Don't forget that CEO's have much higher rates of psychopathy than general public. Whether this is the case here is unknown, but it's fairly likely they are just fine despite being a part of killing people by negligence. If this wasn't the case, he would have likely left ages ago, or not taken the task at all.
 
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1260 on: December 25, 2019, 12:35:19 pm »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...

Don't forget that CEO's have much higher rates of psychopathy than general public. Whether this is the case here is unknown, but it's fairly likely they are just fine despite being a part of killing people by negligence. If this wasn't the case, he would have likely left ages ago, or not taken the task at all.
I was talking about the emotional pain coming from losing his highly paid position.
Of course lower levels of emotional empathy (closing to psychopathy) is to be expected of such positions.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1261 on: December 26, 2019, 12:57:53 am »
Dennis Muilenburg is a psychopath, evidenced in the congressional hearing. He showed zero emotions and it was so bad that the families of the dead were scolding him and instructing him on the emotions he is missing. Just terrible to watch.

His golden parachute is expected to total around $60M. It seems surreal the guy does billions of dollars damage, hundreds killed and he gets to walk and live a rich life. CEO is a preferred job for the psychopath.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1262 on: December 26, 2019, 08:41:07 am »
No one serves jail time, that is the main point of what the fuss all about.  >:D

Imagining that Boeing is a Chinese company, and Dennis is a Chinese citizen working in China ...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 08:44:06 am by BravoV »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1263 on: December 26, 2019, 09:21:33 am »
https://www.space.com/boeing-ceo-muilenburg-resigns.html

So what is it, resigns or was fired?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Muilenburg
"He was CEO from July 2015 until December 23, 2019, when he was fired after the aftermath of the two crashes of the 737 MAX"

"Boeing Fires C.E.O. Dennis Muilenburg"
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/business/Boeing-ceo-muilenburg.html
http://brave.com <- THE BEST BROWSER
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1264 on: December 26, 2019, 09:27:29 am »
https://www.space.com/boeing-ceo-muilenburg-resigns.html

So what is it, resigns or was fired?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Muilenburg
"He was CEO from July 2015 until December 23, 2019, when he was fired after the aftermath of the two crashes of the 737 MAX"

"Boeing Fires C.E.O. Dennis Muilenburg"
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/business/Boeing-ceo-muilenburg.html

Quote
Boeing's press release stated that, "The Board of Directors decided that a change in leadership was necessary to restore confidence in the Company moving forward as it works to repair relationships with regulators, customers, and all other stakeholders."

That sounds like a sacking to me. You can't fire me, I quit!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 09:29:44 am by Ed.Kloonk »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1265 on: December 26, 2019, 09:44:44 am »
It is common practice that the board want's to fire a manager, but instead of a formal dismissal they ask the manager to resign. So formally the manager resigns to avoid getting fired.
 
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Offline imo

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1266 on: December 26, 2019, 12:49:45 pm »
The CEOs of today's large corporations are selected and hired by the Boards in the same manner and for the same reason as the actors are selected and assigned for the John McClane role in the "Die Hard X" movie. The job of the Board is to communicate towards the Markets the new John McClane will save the World, thus all the Markets will react positively. Such a role costs and the CEO's contract reflects that.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1267 on: December 26, 2019, 02:46:43 pm »
The CEOs of today's large corporations are selected and hired by the Boards in the same manner and for the same reason as the actors are selected and assigned for the John McClane role in the "Die Hard X" movie. The job of the Board is to communicate towards the Markets the new John McClane will save the World, thus all the Markets will react positively. Such a role costs and the CEO's contract reflects that.

The reason it took so long to let the CEO go, might have been that it takes time to find a good "actor" to take on a tough role with a complicated script.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1268 on: December 26, 2019, 03:30:52 pm »
The CEOs of today's large corporations are selected and hired by the Boards in the same manner and for the same reason as the actors are selected and assigned for the John McClane role in the "Die Hard X" movie. The job of the Board is to communicate towards the Markets the new John McClane will save the World, thus all the Markets will react positively. Such a role costs and the CEO's contract reflects that.

Exactly. They serve no other purpose really. They even have little (if any) operational role. They're mostly just a name and image. Sure they make craptons of money while it lasts (and also when they get fired, which is an integral part of the job), but they are mainly selling their name, not their work (as most other employees would). Changing CEOs when things go wrong is inevitable, but it obviously doesn't solve anything.

Sure there are a few exceptions but usually mostly CEOs that were also among the company's founders or close relatives.

And of course here "resign" or "fired" doesn't matter. CEOs are not common employees. It's just the same. It's just like for people with the higher political functions. The official take is alwats they "resigned", so as to keep both the person's professional image intact AND the image of the position (and that of the people above) as well!

 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1269 on: January 04, 2020, 09:56:19 am »
http://brave.com <- THE BEST BROWSER
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1270 on: January 05, 2020, 02:10:06 pm »
This was mentioned in The Keiser Report, about 8 mins in, sounded a bit tongue in cheek, comparing with financial algorithms. :o

https://youtu.be/vfazTPircVw?t=617
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 08:59:48 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1271 on: January 06, 2020, 02:14:54 pm »
No one serves jail time, that is the main point of what the fuss all about.  >:D

Imagining that Boeing is a Chinese company, and Dennis is a Chinese citizen working in China ...

So you suggesting he would been shoot, hanged then killed and chopped up in pieces then his organs been taken out for donation to top elites of the party while blamed for being a Falungong activist? No China isnt fascistic like psychopath Muillenburg and US justice system? No cant be.

The CEOs of today's large corporations are selected and hired by the Boards in the same manner and for the same reason as the actors are selected and assigned for the John McClane role in the "Die Hard X" movie. The job of the Board is to communicate towards the Markets the new John McClane will save the World, thus all the Markets will react positively. Such a role costs and the CEO's contract reflects that.

Which suggests not only are the board who selects CEO's and the Market who reacts to their decisions a bunch of psychopaths.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 02:17:32 pm by MT »
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1273 on: January 13, 2020, 11:30:07 pm »
He probably left with a big fat package on top of his 30mil a year salary.
but the emotional pain...

Don't forget that CEO's have much higher rates of psychopathy than general public. Whether this is the case here is unknown, but it's fairly likely they are just fine despite being a part of killing people by negligence. If this wasn't the case, he would have likely left ages ago, or not taken the task at all.


It's not just the board that pushes for sociopath types, the investor community (Wall Street, the Banking industry and the wealthy), the folks with the real clout, want a CEO that will have no problems closing a factory in one country in order to move production to cheaper places and a sociopath/psychopath is just more amenable to laying-off thousands of workers to do so.  This is the era we live in and it's an era that the charts show began to have the desired effect around about 1973. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/7vsicm/the_most_important_graph_income_vs_productivity/

For thousands of years before the industrial revolution the average workers income barely moved and remained at near poverty levels, then, as the industrial revolution kicked in the standard of living for the middle class increased and did so quite dramatically.  You can slice it many different ways, but what the industrial revolution really was was the application of science and technology to decrease unit cost and improve unit quality.  And, as productivity increased so did workers wages and standard of living.  However, when the investor class realized they could make far more money by cutting the workers out of there share of profits and the rules changed to permit it, then we had that inflection point about 1973 and workers incomes have flat-lined or trended down every since.  If workers had been cut out of a share of profits that productivity gains provided since the beginning of the industrial revolution there would never have been an industrial revolution because the buying power of the middle class would not have risen and the volume of production would never have increased.  I'm approaching my mid 60's and every day of my working life, now closing in on 45 years, has been in this era -- I've never known anything else.

Younger workers can point at 'boomers' as the root cause but that like blaming all white people for the sins of the few in power.  Most boomers of my age will not be able to retire with the same comfort level, or at all, as older boomers who timed there exit a bit better so it's not just younger workers that have been shit on. 

When politics is driven by money and the wealthy are permitted outsized influence then it should come as no surprise that, over time, we'd get to where we are.  We've been in a de-regulation phase since right about the inflection point and no where is the consequence of this more apparent than the Boeing/FAA situation of the 737MAX.

What Boeing became is what most others companies have become.


Brian
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Lion Air crash: Jakarta Boeing 737 'had prior instrument error'
« Reply #1274 on: January 13, 2020, 11:51:53 pm »
Quote
If workers had been cut out of a share of profits that productivity gains provided since the beginning of the industrial revolution there would never have been an industrial revolution because the buying power of the middle class would not have risen and the volume of production would never have increased.
An example is Brit colonization of India. For some 60 years under British colonialism, India traded at a surplus but ended with a financial deficit. India benefited from law and order and culture and technology. But most of their profits were enjoyed by Britain. Not that certain individuals in India didn't profit, massively. (Not all that different from how Saudi Arabia enriches certain individuals in America in order for this club to massively profit at the expense of America's economy. The average Saudi citizen is a baller, but without this arrangement, Iran would come and take their lunch box).

There is actually nothing wrong with this system. It's how society advances. Slavery and/or disaparity in income is necessary. We don't have a better way. It doesn't exist. Communism is the same thing, only the ruling class will inevitably need to use excessive force and restrictions of freedom to maintain this order. In communism, you are born to the ruling class like nobility, and you sit in a room deciding what your peasants do and how to punish them. In capitalism, whoever has the money has the responsibility to protect their own and their peasants interests (and these people have the ability to lose all this money, too).

If your country shares better and is happy, it's not for long. Cuz the country that does not will have a bigger club and will take that tribute that your country was not collecting from its people to use for such things. The idea is for the wealthy to have its best interests aligned better with the peasants. Like a big protection racquet.

I think US is far from the worst to its peasants, and is one of the the least racist first world countries, IMO. Not that it's great, but there's lots worse.

People might look at Switzerland and say it's a peaceful country. The history behind that is that Swiss have strong geographical defenses and were historically very successful mercenaries. The regional European powers mutually agreed to leave Switzerland alone, otherwise if Switzerland takes a side, the other power would have to get their merc from somewhere else.

Sorry to get so far off topic.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 01:55:33 am by KL27x »
 


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