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Lunar landing anniversary today

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PlainName:

--- Quote ---Rebuilding earth after a nuclear holocaust is easy next to colonizing Mars.
--- End quote ---

Ignoring what this all is about, I was thinking about this particular aspect. On the face of it that seems obvious, but...

The war in Ukraine has shown how fragile our manufacturing capability is. For chips, in particular, there is just one company producing stuff that everyone depends on, and that company depends on single source other companies. It's a bit of a circular thing, and it's just one example.

Now, suppose a nuke took them out. We would be quite crippled. In a proper nuclear exchange that would happen to many resources, and we could easily be back to where we were just after WWII. Sure we would have, at least temporarily, the knowledge but no way to apply it for quite some time. And since the low-hanging fruit of resources has already been picked, the second time around it might be a lot harder to get to the same technical place.

So, we might well survive but we're not going to be buying stuff with abandon on Aliexpress or whatever.

Switching to Mars or the moon... well, it's an uphill struggle from the start and everything would need to be closed circuit. We couldn't, for instance, camp out while we build a rough shed from local timber. But we would have the full technical backing of Mother Earth, and that's not something to be sneezed at. Perhaps, in the end, that's a more successful route than starting again with nothing and again getting nowhere.

pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 am ---The war in Ukraine has shown how fragile our manufacturing capability is. For chips, in particular, there is just one company producing stuff that everyone depends on, and that company depends on single source other companies. It's a bit of a circular thing, and it's just one example.

--- End quote ---

The war in the Ukraine might well be abused to make us believe there are shortages due to it, where the actual shortage might be due to hoarders trying to make more money. Not the first time in history that prices are being manipulated by investors, but that is just a thought.


--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 am ---Now, suppose a nuke took them out. We would be quite crippled. In a proper nuclear exchange that would happen to many resources, and we could easily be back to where we were just after WWII. Sure we would have, at least temporarily, the knowledge but no way to apply it for quite some time. And since the low-hanging fruit of resources has already been picked, the second time around it might be a lot harder to get to the same technical place.

So, we might well survive but we're not going to be buying stuff with abandon on Aliexpress or whatever.

--- End quote ---

That's a given, but it also proves how much we now rely on modern technology. After a nuclear war, having computers should be the least of our worries. A roof over our heads and food will be far more important.


--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 10:55:58 am ---Switching to Mars or the moon... well, it's an uphill struggle from the start and everything would need to be closed circuit. We couldn't, for instance, camp out while we build a rough shed from local timber. But we would have the full technical backing of Mother Earth, and that's not something to be sneezed at. Perhaps, in the end, that's a more successful route than starting again with nothing and again getting nowhere.

--- End quote ---

And why would things be different on the moon with or without backup from earth. People will be people and things will turn sour in the end.

Also consider that there is a shortage of a lot of things here on earth, and to build a colony on the moon would require a lot of materials that we are short on already. Also consider the amount of fuel to get them up to the moon. So why waste it to just prolong the existence of the species on another location while the rest of the species dies here on earth :-//

PlainName:

--- Quote ---The war in the Ukraine might well be abused to make us believe there are shortages due to it, where the actual shortage might be due to hoarders trying to make more money.
--- End quote ---

My point was that it doesn't take a lot to bring us down. The Ukraine thing was to show how quickly that can occur, but unlike the Ukraine thing, a nuclear war would mean it's not a hoarding problem but a manufacturing problem - there would be no more coming along if you just wait long enough or pay enough.


--- Quote ---That's a given, but it also proves how much we now rely on modern technology. After a nuclear war, having computers should be the least of our worries. A roof over our heads and food will be far more important.
--- End quote ---

I am not sure you are getting the drift. Are you saying you would be OK to live without technology? Back to 1930's lifestyle? Have you really thought that through?


--- Quote ---And why would things be different on the moon with or without backup from earth.
--- End quote ---

Because things are a lot easier if you have a supply line to good resources than if you don't. Say you toddle off to the middle of nowhere with some batteries for your phone and not a lot else. It's going to be a drag pretty quick, right? You'll have to figure out how to get food from somewhere, water, etc. But with a supply line back to your gaff you can have electricity on tap, Amazon deliveries and whatever. Isn't that going to be somewhat different to 'without backup'?

Brumby:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 25, 2022, 08:47:27 am ---
--- Quote from: Brumby on July 24, 2022, 09:34:33 am ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on July 22, 2022, 04:39:30 am ---Even as fiction, Star Trek is a bit ridiculous.  I guess I've never paid attention to whether they've left the galaxy, still, within the galaxy, you have to exceed the speed of light by huge factors to get around.  It's 52,000 light years across.

--- End quote ---
:palm:  How to kill your credibility.

You might want to pay more attention next time you pull out some numbers.

--- End quote ---

WoW!  Only in an engineering forum would someone completely miss the point by focusing on such a trivial detail. 
--- End quote ---
Who says I missed the point?  I certainly did not.

You may consider an error in excess of 50,000 light years as trivial, but I kinda think it is significant - especially as the numbers are all too easily found.


--- Quote ---That's what I get for hanging out with nerds.

--- End quote ---
Yeah ... OK.  On that I'd have to plead guilty.   ::)

pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pm ---
--- Quote ---The war in the Ukraine might well be abused to make us believe there are shortages due to it, where the actual shortage might be due to hoarders trying to make more money.
--- End quote ---

My point was that it doesn't take a lot to bring us down. The Ukraine thing was to show how quickly that can occur, but unlike the Ukraine thing, a nuclear war would mean it's not a hoarding problem but a manufacturing problem - there would be no more coming along if you just wait long enough or pay enough.

--- End quote ---

True. Being it a world wide pandemic or a fairly local war, with the world very intertwined these day's a "small" hick-up can have large consequences.


--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pm ---
--- Quote ---That's a given, but it also proves how much we now rely on modern technology. After a nuclear war, having computers should be the least of our worries. A roof over our heads and food will be far more important.
--- End quote ---

I am not sure you are getting the drift. Are you saying you would be OK to live without technology? Back to 1930's lifestyle? Have you really thought that through?

--- End quote ---

No I'm saying that in the event of a nuclear war we are basically forced to live without modern technology, and that having modern technology in that moment of time will not help us to rebuild a new world. Over time it can come back and quicker than before if, and only if, the knowledge is not lost. With a lot of it in computer storage it might well get lost though.

It will take a lot of "man" power to rebuild society, depending on how much of it got destroyed and contaminated for that matter.

I'm just as much used to having technology as the next guy, and would feel lost if it was not there anymore, but in case of such an event would still be able to build and create stuff with my own hands.


--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pm ---
--- Quote ---And why would things be different on the moon with or without backup from earth.
--- End quote ---

Because things are a lot easier if you have a supply line to good resources than if you don't.

--- End quote ---

I was not hinting at the difference between doing such a thing without or without a supply chain, I was talking about how a new society will develop if it where to be build. Hence the "People will be people and things will turn sour in the end." statement at the end of what I wrote there.


--- Quote from: dunkemhigh on July 25, 2022, 01:30:01 pm ---Say you toddle off to the middle of nowhere with some batteries for your phone and not a lot else. It's going to be a drag pretty quick, right? You'll have to figure out how to get food from somewhere, water, etc. But with a supply line back to your gaff you can have electricity on tap, Amazon deliveries and whatever. Isn't that going to be somewhat different to 'without backup'?

--- End quote ---

Well first of all, if I was to undertake such an adventure my phone would be way down on the list. An initial supply of food and water and some camping gear would be very high up that list. And sure a way to get new supplies would be very helpful, but the ability to make do with what is at hand would be far more helpful.

And why not the phone, what good will it do if there is no service in the area you are going to :palm:

But I guess that is becoming more and more the problem, people can't do without that phone anymore, and are lost without it. For me a computer yes, because that is a tool I use very much to do projects with, but my phone I could do without were it not that technology forces it upon me, with two step verification protocols and what more they think of to use it for.

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