General > General Technical Chat

Lunar landing anniversary today

<< < (14/15) > >>

james_s:
I don't know why some focus so much on global warming, that's only the tip of the iceberg as far as humans wrecking the environment we live in. We have gotten a lot better in recent years but we still spew toxic chemicals into the atmosphere, bodies of water and into the ground. I don't remember which one but there was a river that actually caught fire at one point because there was so much industrial waste in it. We had a bit of a close call with a big hole in our ozone layer which we caught and dealt with in the nick of time. We polluted almost every corner of the globe with toxic lead back when TEL was used in gasoline. We are consuming fossil fuels and other resources that took millennia to accrue at rates far faster than they can be replenished. We are over-fishing the oceans, risking extinction of species we depend on, we have already directly caused the extinction of a number of other species. We've had multiple world wars and now there are weapons capable of destroying the entire planet several times over. There have even been cases where that got dangerously close to happening, and a few where nuclear weapons were accidentally dropped but did not detonate. Look at how badly the affects of Covid have affected us and then imagine what it will be like when there is an energy shortage unlike anything we have ever seen, a food shortage, etc. At the present rate of resource consumption and population growth it's a matter of when, not if.

I am fairly sure we humans will cause our own demise long before the sun burns out, and if we manage to escape this planet and settle somewhere else, there is no reason to believe these habits won't follow us. I would be shocked if an isolated colony somewhere didn't get torn to shreds by politics, fighting, love triangles, resource contention and other factors within a short period. If we can't even manage to coexist here and take care of the home we have, why should we get another one and what reason is there to believe it would work out any better?

IDEngineer:
There's no reason to believe things would be different on another planet. The behavior you're describing isn't new, it's burned into human DNA.

However, if we just turned inward, there'd be no reason to have children anymore. Just live it up and then die, and let this generation be the last. Clearly that's not happening, so we should make things as good as possible going forward.

I agree with taking care of this planet. But that does not mean space exploration and colonization should be cancelled. We should be doing BOTH. We should be taking care of our "cradle" because the majority of our population will continue to live here. But we should be reaching out too, like the explorers of old, and since we've mapped and colonized our cradle... "out" means "space".

The moon is doable. Mars is doable. The other planets... well, not so much, but there are some interesting moons around Jupiter and Saturn that hold some promise. Am I talking seriously huge Engineering projects that are likely decades out? Yes. But what's the option? Just sit here, twiddling our thumbs, while people in neighboring countries hate each other? That's going to happen anyway (human DNA, remember?) so how about we offset that with something positive?

We should have been working on (example) a permanent moon base in the 70's immediately after Apollo. We've shamefully wasted 50+ years. A moon base is within reach in 10-20 years using present technology, which will yield further technological advancements useful on earth as well as in space, benefitting those who live in both places. This is not idle speculation, we have the history of the space race to prove it. Let's get started.

IDEngineer:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 25, 2022, 07:15:18 pm ---Because take a look at the world, true civilization is not what we are doing. Lets fix that first before venturing of into the unknown.
--- End quote ---
That's the excuse of the naysayers throughout history. "Fix what we have before we try anything new." If that were history's prevailing choice, we'd still be living in huts because huts aren't "perfect" yet.

pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:35:35 am ---There's no reason to believe things would be different on another planet. The behavior you're describing isn't new, it's burned into human DNA.

However, if we just turned inward, there'd be no reason to have children anymore. Just live it up and then die, and let this generation be the last. Clearly that's not happening, so we should make things as good as possible going forward.

--- End quote ---

And why is this not happening, it is also in our DNA. At least most of the people on this planet have a huge drive to reproduce. Only due to education and becoming more aware this is going down. And at some point with a low enough number of people on the planet it might even be sustainable.


--- Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:35:35 am ---I agree with taking care of this planet. But that does not mean space exploration and colonization should be cancelled. We should be doing BOTH. We should be taking care of our "cradle" because the majority of our population will continue to live here. But we should be reaching out too, like the explorers of old, and since we've mapped and colonized our cradle... "out" means "space".

The moon is doable. Mars is doable. The other planets... well, not so much, but there are some interesting moons around Jupiter and Saturn that hold some promise. Am I talking seriously huge Engineering projects that are likely decades out? Yes. But what's the option? Just sit here, twiddling our thumbs, while people in neighboring countries hate each other? That's going to happen anyway (human DNA, remember?) so how about we offset that with something positive?

We should have been working on (example) a permanent moon base in the 70's immediately after Apollo. We've shamefully wasted 50+ years. A moon base is within reach in 10-20 years using present technology, which will yield further technological advancements useful on earth as well as in space, benefitting those who live in both places. This is not idle speculation, we have the history of the space race to prove it. Let's get started.

--- End quote ---

And why should we do BOTH when this means a quicker downfall of what is here on earth? It will take a lot of valuable resources to do what you suggest. And why, just to spread our so called greatness? As I wrote before, only a few people are truly amazing, the rest are just average or plane old idiots. And the latter are the ones shouting the loudest of how great "we" are.

Another question could be what is the point of it all. Seek the true meaning of life. Is there an actual purpose to it all. And with that I'm not talking about humanity alone, I'm talking about the whole universe. Sure it is there, but why and what is the use of it.


--- Quote from: IDEngineer on July 26, 2022, 03:39:46 am ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on July 25, 2022, 07:15:18 pm ---Because take a look at the world, true civilization is not what we are doing. Lets fix that first before venturing of into the unknown.

--- End quote ---

That's the excuse of the naysayers throughout history. "Fix what we have before we try anything new." If that were history's prevailing choice, we'd still be living in huts because huts aren't "perfect" yet.

--- End quote ---

To me that is utter bullshit. Technological advancement would have been there with or without the space race, because like you said, that is also human nature. And here in lies the whole problem, human nature. Like james_s wrote, we work hard to destroy what we love, and that would also happen on those moon, mars, or even further out bases, long before we can reach a planet where it is possible to do what we did here on earth.

And the supply chain dunkemhigh wrote about will dry up before any of those further out bases are able to become self sustained, if that is even possible.

It is called realism, not nay saying.

IDEngineer:
The amount of resources required to establish a permanent moon base are a drop in the bucket compared to normal industrial activity.

And all we need is some basic manufacturing equipment to get things going. The more we investigate, the more raw materials we keep finding on the moon. Even water - the single most precious substance - is there in ice form. Meanwhile, the sun loses no potency due to atmosphere and provides boundless energy both thermally and (via solar cells) electrically. We might want the first base at a pole so the sunlight is more or less continuous, but as it happens the poles also harbor a greater abundance of water ice.

With a basic manufacturing infrastructure, we can bootstrap our way up. We do not need to "steal" continuous resources from the earth, they're already on the moon.

I often wonder if those who oppose space exploration are simply jealous that their pet projects here on earth don't inspire the same imagination in their fellow humans. There certainly is no logic in opposing space due to "resources" or "spreading our problems to other worlds". Such opposition borders on religious overzealousness, bred by frustration that others do not share the same goals. Heck, even Carl Sagan had such an antagonist in his book (and later movie) "Contact".

Thankfully, history shows that there are always individuals with the foresight to see past those with shorter vision. I just wish governments would stop (ahem) wasting resources on all the petty social nonsense and, as in decades and millenia past, focus more attention on the future. That future would arrive all the sooner, and quite likely bring with it solutions to many of the problems that the short-vision folks shout about today. Just think about all the advancements in materials sciences, fabrication, electronics, medicine, environmental processing and cleanup (space requires VERY good recycling!), etc. that spun off from the space race. Without that kick in the pants, those advancements could have been delayed decades - or longer.

Fine, let's say that space by itself isn't worth the investment. But the spinoffs definitely are. There is zero chance those separate spinoffs will "occur anyway" without a primary motivating project driving them forward. The two main such motivators are 1) war and 2) space. I'd much prefer a vigorous space program to another world war. If you're worried about wasting resources, review the war materiel consumed in WW1 and/or WW2 and get back to us... not to mention the price in human blood and suffering. Space is a bargain by comparison in every criterion.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod