General > General Technical Chat
Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
<< < (22/63) > >>
Rick Law:
In the USA, wording of a degree diploma varies.  From web search, I found these examples: (… awarded the degree of: )
+ "Bachelor of Science [not a word about major]" (UC-Berkley),
+ "Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering [no 'in' here, exactly as show]" (U of Colorado).
+ "Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering" (MIT),

So, it would imply to me the gentleman can legally sign with the title "Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering" but not the title "Electrical Engineer" even in the State he earned the degree.

This is not odd.  Most times I receive letters beginning with "Dear Sir,".   Should I found myself in England writing a complain letter to some government department, and I sign it as "Sir Rick Law"; it is likely I will get into some kind of trouble.  "Sir" has special/legal meaning in England, just as "Engineer" has special/legal meaning in Oregon.

Also, having the knowledge and/or a degree in a craft does not confer the legal right to practice that craft, nor does it confer rights to a title that is defined by the jurisdiction in question.

+ You can have the MD (medical doctor) degree, but until you are certified and licensed in that State, you cannot practice as doctor in medicine in that State.
+ You can have the law degree, but until you pass the Bar exam, you cannot practice law in that State.

So, for example take 1973/1974 Hillary Clinton in Washington DC.    Well, she was not a Clinton yet back in 1973/4, but that is irrelevant to the point here.  She has her JD degree from Yale but failed DC bar exam.   If she write a letter with legal suggestions, she can sign as "Rodham Clinton, JD" but if she sign as "Rodham Clinton, Attorney at Law", she could be in rather big legal trouble.  Bill Clinton on the other hand has the JD and passed the Arkansas bar exam.  He could practice law there up until the time of his disbarment - for lying under oath (2000/2001).

So, with this one, I think the government bureaucrats in Oregon are right.


Disclaimer – Law is just my last name and I am not a lawyer.  Further, I am not pretending to be an engineer, nor am I presenting this as legal advice.  However, I am trying to appear smart, insightful, thoughtful, and all those other good things.

josecamoessilva:

--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 27, 2017, 09:40:01 pm ---So, with this one, I think the government bureaucrats in Oregon are right.

--- End quote ---

I'm sure they're legally covered. Doesn't mean they're right.
WA1ICI:
I've worked in electronics my whole career - starting off as a design engineer at Intel in 1977, and ending as a part-time consultant, with jobs designing custom LSI, high-speed communications, CPU hardware and much else, as well as management.  I've been a member of IEEE since 1978.  My college degree is "Master of Engineering" from Cornell Univ.  If I can't call myself an "engineer", what can I call myself?  An "actor faking being an engineer"?  "Someone doing engineering-like things"?

In all my work in Silicon Valley, I never once encountered the requirement for a Professional Engineer (PE) license.  If all the people in Silicon Valley who design electronics are not engineers, what are they?  I'll admit that there are plenty of incompetant engineers who shouldn't have been ones (I've had to fire a few), but most are good and some excellent.  I've even worked with several hardware and software engineers that were outstanding but didn't have relevant college degrees.

I can see the need for licensed engineers in areas where there is substantial financial, legal, or safety risks, but usually these have a particular title, such as "Professional Engineer", which probably should be protected by law.  But it seems like Oregon is a victim of "regulatory capture", in this case captured by the professional engineers and/or their unions.  They don't seem to realize that there are lots of people working in, say, Beaverton (Tektronix) or Hillsboro (Intel) that are doing things that are traditionally called "engineering".  Oregon picked the wrong word to legally protect. 

The root of the problem is that, in English, there isn't a convenient word for doing technical design without a license.  There are whole major fields (such as electronics) where licensing is simply absent, at least in the United States.  Usually the gateway requirement is a relevant college degree, but even here it is not always a necessity.

I hope Oregon loses its case, or at least tightens-down what words they are legally protecting.

- John Atwood
james_s:
Even if they're legally covered, it's still stupid. I don't care if someone calls themselves a doctor as long as they're not actually practicing medicine without a license, and I certainly don't care if someone calls themselves an engineer without being a certified PE so long as they're not designing skyscrapers and bridges and stuff. This guy didn't even design something, he just pointed out that their numbers were wrong and the only thing they could throw at him is inappropriate use of the title. He never claimed to be a PE, just an electronics engineer.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing anyway. I would never say that education or certifications are a bad thing, but throughout my career I have seen rather little correlation between those things and actual practical ability to apply the knowledge they have and do the job. Theory and book knowledge is great, but it takes a lot more than theory and book knowledge to be a good engineer, or any number of other career titles I'd assume.
Richard Crowley:
Mr. Järlström simply didn't do very good research.  If he had, he would have discovered that he isn't the first to complain and present evidence about those cameras. Or even the 10th. And possibly not the 100th.  People have been complaining, whinging, presenting evidence, timing, publishing, ranting for DECADES about those things.  And the government (city and state) steadfastly ignore all petitions from their customers (us citizens).  And just for spite they throw the book at anyone they can.  Just to get rid of them.

Even if Järlström and the Institute for Justice win in court (which seems unlikely as the court is the same state government) it would make zero impact on the red-light cameras.  Quite to the contrary, other cities in Oregon are seeing $$$ and installing the same robot bandits.  The whole business about the title "Engineer" is a red herring here.  They could just as easily chosen some other excuse to shut him up and make him go away.  We aren't yet at the point where they can send out the SWAT team at 0400 and roust him out of bed and lock him up. But just give them a few years.

But, OTOH, if you crossed the border illegally to enter the USA and you are using a stolen Social Security Number and lied committed perjury about your status to get a job and a drivers license, you are safe in Beaverton because it is a "Sanctuary City".
Navigation
Message Index
Next page
Previous page
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...

Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod