General > General Technical Chat
Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license
EEVblog:
--- Quote from: metrologist on April 27, 2017, 03:30:04 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2017, 02:14:18 pm ---Here is the rub:
The title engineer (or any other title for that matter) is a vocational title, and as such should reflect what your current vocation is, not what qualifications you hold.
--- End quote ---
I wonder if you still consider yourself an Engineer? Maybe you are now an Actor? Producer and etc, because that's what you do. Maybe you still engineer something? Maybe you are engineering success :D
--- End quote ---
My Vocation has changed somewhat (ok, a lot), but considering that I run an engineering Youtube channel and at least do a little engineering every day, I'm most certainly still an engineer.
Just like say someone who moved into engineering management would still be an engineer. They may not get their handy dirty every day, but they are still in the game.
EEVblog:
--- Quote from: WA1ICI on April 27, 2017, 10:58:14 pm ---I've worked in electronics my whole career - starting off as a design engineer at Intel in 1977, and ending as a part-time consultant, with jobs designing custom LSI, high-speed communications, CPU hardware and much else, as well as management. I've been a member of IEEE since 1978. My college degree is "Master of Engineering" from Cornell Univ. If I can't call myself an "engineer", what can I call myself? An "actor faking being an engineer"? "Someone doing engineering-like things"?
In all my work in Silicon Valley, I never once encountered the requirement for a Professional Engineer (PE) license. If all the people in Silicon Valley who design electronics are not engineers, what are they?
--- End quote ---
And that right there is what makes this whole thing an absolute joke, and anyone who tries to defend restriction on the simple vocational word "engineer" will never win.
--- Quote ---I can see the need for licensed engineers in areas where there is substantial financial, legal, or safety risks, but usually these have a particular title, such as "Professional Engineer", which probably should be protected by law. But it seems like Oregon is a victim of "regulatory capture", in this case captured by the professional engineers and/or their unions. They don't seem to realize that there are lots of people working in, say, Beaverton (Tektronix) or Hillsboro (Intel) that are doing things that are traditionally called "engineering". Oregon picked the wrong word to legally protect.
--- End quote ---
Yes. By all means invent and protect some specific term like PEng or whatever, and let market forces dictate whether it's required or not.
e.g. The IEA failed with CPeng in Australia for the electrical/electronics field, hardly anyone has it, and it's almost never a requirement for anything, and gains you essentially nothing by having it on your resume.
And in cases where major public safety etc is involved I even support having it as a strict legal requirement.
mtdoc:
--- Quote from: grumpydoc on April 27, 2017, 02:11:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on April 27, 2017, 01:21:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: grumpydoc on April 27, 2017, 09:35:11 am ---Even trying to protect Doctor is difficult - anyone with a PhD can legitimately entitle themselves "Doctor". I believe that the current legally protected term in the UK is "Registered Medical Practitioner".
--- End quote ---
I seem to remember that in the UK it is strictly only PhDs who are allowed to call themselves Doctor, however common it may be for medical people to call themselves that.
--- End quote ---
No, it's OK for medical doctors to call themselves Doctor, quite a few will have doctorate level degrees anyway.
--- End quote ---
FWIW - In the USA, the title "doctor" has very little to do with whether one is licensed or qualified to practice medicine. In addition to medical doctors, PhDs, podiatrists, dentists, chiropractors and others can legally call themselves doctor.
In order to legally practice medicine, one needs to be licensed by a state medical board. They require proof of passing passing a series of national medical board exams (which require graduation from a medical school to take). It also requires completions of at least one year of a medical internship. (It has nothing to do with the AMA which many, many doctors do not belong to. The AMA is really just a medical lobbying association. It's an out of date organization - and I don't know any doctors that have paid the fees they charge to join)
After internship, in order to be a "board certified" physician - which almost all US physicians are, one must complete a medical residency training program and then pass a series of board certification exams administered by the appropriate medical specialty board.
Medical specialty boards require regular continuing medical education and exams every 7-10 years to maintain board certification which is required for most jobs.
CatalinaWOW:
--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 27, 2017, 09:40:01 pm ---In the USA, wording of a degree diploma varies. From web search, I found these examples: (… awarded the degree of: )
+ "Bachelor of Science [not a word about major]" (UC-Berkley),
+ "Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering [no 'in' here, exactly as show]" (U of Colorado).
+ "Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering" (MIT),
So, it would imply to me the gentleman can legally sign with the title "Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering" but not the title "Electrical Engineer" even in the State he earned the degree.
This is not odd. Most times I receive letters beginning with "Dear Sir,". Should I found myself in England writing a complain letter to some government department, and I sign it as "Sir Rick Law"; it is likely I will get into some kind of trouble. "Sir" has special/legal meaning in England, just as "Engineer" has special/legal meaning in Oregon.
Also, having the knowledge and/or a degree in a craft does not confer the legal right to practice that craft, nor does it confer rights to a title that is defined by the jurisdiction in question.
+ You can have the MD (medical doctor) degree, but until you are certified and licensed in that State, you cannot practice as doctor in medicine in that State.
+ You can have the law degree, but until you pass the Bar exam, you cannot practice law in that State.
So, for example take 1973/1974 Hillary Clinton in Washington DC. Well, she was not a Clinton yet back in 1973/4, but that is irrelevant to the point here. She has her JD degree from Yale but failed DC bar exam. If she write a letter with legal suggestions, she can sign as "Rodham Clinton, JD" but if she sign as "Rodham Clinton, Attorney at Law", she could be in rather big legal trouble. Bill Clinton on the other hand has the JD and passed the Arkansas bar exam. He could practice law there up until the time of his disbarment - for lying under oath (2000/2001).
So, with this one, I think the government bureaucrats in Oregon are right.
Disclaimer – Law is just my last name and I am not a lawyer. Further, I am not pretending to be an engineer, nor am I presenting this as legal advice. However, I am trying to appear smart, insightful, thoughtful, and all those other good things.
--- End quote ---
There is even more confusion in degree names than that. As another example, the degrees I received from my school are:
Bachelor of Arts in Electrical Engineering.
Master of Electrical Engineering.
I am not a lawyer either, but everything I have seen about the law says detail matters.
The Oregon gentleman signed his letter as an engineer, not as a "Registered Professional Engineer", or with the abbreviation PE. Nor did he affix the seal which is issued in most states to Registered Professional Engineers, or any facsimile of this seal. I think most of us agree he is not entitled to the latter description, but he didn't claim it so there should not be a problem. I suspect if he gets an Attorney (not a JD degree holder) with appropriate legal background he will be quite successful in defending himself. Of course the Attorney will cost more than the $500 fine.
SkyMaster:
Where I live, the title "Engineer" is a reserved title.
In order to use this title you have to be a member of the "Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec" (commonly known as "OIQ"). This is part of the laws http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/ShowDoc/cs/I-9
It has nothing to do with the type of engineering somebody is doing, or if the person is getting paid or not.
The OIQ is known to come down on individual who use the title "Engineer" illegally.
I think the only persons who can use the word "engineer" in their title are the "forest engineer", and they have to call themselves "forest engineer" and not "engineer".
:)
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