Man fined for criticizing govt using science, without a license

[EEVblog]

He would violate laws almost anywhere in the world if he wrote "I am a master of science in electrical engineering" or "I am MSc. EE" or in Europe "I am an Ing. in EE" or "I am a Dipl.-Ing. in EE" etc.

There is usually nothing inherently illegal against lying about credentials unless you do it for profit or some such which pushes it into fraud. At least here anyway.

[iMo]

Sure, until you start to communicate with authorities in writing.. 
Then it is illegal.

[EEVblog]

I did not read this before. If this is true, than probably he just did not register at the  Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering. In fact, I change my mind, Oregon can fuck off. So if I would go there, not register myself, I wouldn't be allowed to use my title?

I'd be extending the big middle finger too.
Most practicing EE's in oz are not members of the Institute of Engineers Australia for example, nor is it a requirement for practically any EE job in the country.
They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

But in Australia, if you do the crime of been  electrical engineer and connect a wire at your home. You can get a fine of 1 million.

Please provide evidence of that. As far as I am aware you cannot be fined for doing your own wiring. What can happen though is that if something goes wrong then your insurance can be invalidated. Or if someone got injured and/or died as a result you might be liable. That differs from regular (non mains) EE work were using "best practice" usually is enough to legally protect you.
Yes, EE's like myself are not permitted to do our own wiring regardless of any level of qualification, technically not even allowed to change a power point. But you won't get fined for it. I am not aware of a single case were that has happened.

[EEVblog]

Sure, until you start to communicate with authorities in writing.. 
Then it is illegal.

Only in dumb-arse backwater states in the US 

[soldar]

If a job requires a license to do it then you cannot do it if you don't have the necessary license. A person can have obtained a degree in whatever field but it is the license which allows him to practice. Lawyers, engineers, physicians, plumbers, electricians, realtors... if the state requires them to have a license to practice then they need the license to practice.

The stupidity in this case is that the guy with the Swedish name could not be considered to be "practicing" by any stretch of the imagination.

It's like if I said to my wife in the car "slow down because you're going over the speed limit and you might get a ticket" and I was accused of "giving legal advice" and "practicing law without a license".

[soldar]

There is usually nothing inherently illegal against lying about credentials unless you do it for profit or some such which pushes it into fraud. At least here anyway.

Depends. Lying to a potential date about how you are a famed electrical engineer with great sexual prowess? Probably not illegal.

Lying to a US Government official verbally or in writing? Very illegal. That is how they get you. They badger someone until they can get them in a small lie and then it snowballs from there. Even if the lie has no consequences it is illegal and they can get you.

[Mr. Scram]

Please provide evidence of that. As far as I am aware you cannot be fined for doing your own wiring. What can happen though is that if something goes wrong then your insurance can be invalidated. Or if someone got injured and/or died as a result you might be liable. That differs from regular (non mains) EE work were using "best practice" usually is enough to legally protect you.
Yes, EE's like myself are not permitted to do our own wiring regardless of any level of qualification, technically not even allowed to change a power point. But you won't get fined for it. I am not aware of a single case were that has happened.

To be fair, the potential financial and criminal liability are more of a deterrent than a fine would be.

[digsys]

Yes, EE's like myself are not permitted to do our own wiring regardless of any level of qualification, technically not even allowed to change a power point. But you won't get fined for it. I am not aware of a single case were that has happened.

Actually, it's even easier than that. You can pretty much wire up whatever the heck you want, as long as a licensed electrician inspect it and signs off on it !
Naturally, you provide details of cable / component approval certificates, or source, but that's about it. If you happen to know a few electricians, it's pretty easy :-)

[SiliconWizard]

I don't think it is illegal per se in most countries (there may be exceptions), but that needs to be further explained.

I would think the following:

- Lying about a degree in your resume is not illegal per se, but if discovered after you got employed, it's usually a reason for breaking a work contract on a legal ground (contractually). It would be considered deceptive. Depending on the position, responsibilites and job risks, the company may not just fire you but may also sue you asking for damages.

- Working as a professional in a regulated field requiring a specific degree/credentials, such as medical doctors, civil engineeers, etc, without actually having this degree *is* illegal. The fact that you lied is an aggravating point, but even if you never objectively lied about it, assuming that you got by never being asked, just not having it makes the practice illegal.

- Actually producing a copy of a degree you don't have is producing a fake document and *is* illegal in many, if not all countries in the world.

Of course local laws may have some additional clauses about this.

[iMo]

Most probably anywhere in the world when you start to push hard at authorities, where the implication of such pushing could be an evidence the authorities provided a wrong doing (with $$ or legal impacts), they start to react - the reaction of that authority was a bit childish, imho, most probably their lawyers own the right license, but less practical experience

[SiliconWizard]

Actually, it's even easier than that. You can pretty much wire up whatever the heck you want, as long as a licensed electrician inspect it and signs off on it !

Yes, the same applies over here. So I would call it a "semi-regulated" profession. Non professionals can do it, they just need to have the work inspected and certified by a licensed professional.
It's obviously not the case for "hard-regulated" professions such as medical doctors. You're certainly not allowed to do medical acts on patients if you're not a MD, even if you have the patients checked out by an MD after you're done.

[soldar]

The thing in this case is that the guy never claimed to be an engineer licensed to practice in the State of Oregon. He merely submitted his studies to the board where the State licensed engineers could look at them.

It's like if I call 911 and say "there is a guy here bleeding to death" and they accuse me of diagnosing a patient without being licensed to practice as a doctor.

[digsys]

It's obviously not the case for "hard-regulated" professions such as medical doctors. You're certainly not allowed to do medical acts on patients if you're not a MD, even if you have the patients checked out by an MD after you're done.

SHEEET ! Now you tell me !!

[SiliconWizard]

The thing in this case is that the guy never claimed to be an engineer licensed to practice in the State of Oregon. He merely submitted his studies to the board where the State licensed engineers could look at them.

Yeah I think we pretty much all agree with that.
Then again, I guess the state of Oregon considered that the term "engineer" was legally meaning "licensed engineer" over there. Since the guy was living in Oregon, he was supposed to abide by local laws. That's still pretty stupid but hey...

[EEVblog]

Yes, EE's like myself are not permitted to do our own wiring regardless of any level of qualification, technically not even allowed to change a power point. But you won't get fined for it. I am not aware of a single case were that has happened.

Actually, it's even easier than that. You can pretty much wire up whatever the heck you want, as long as a licensed electrician inspect it and signs off on it !
Naturally, you provide details of cable / component approval certificates, or source, but that's about it. If you happen to know a few electricians, it's pretty easy :-)

Correct.

[EEVblog]

- Actually producing a copy of a degree you don't have is producing a fake document and *is* illegal in many, if not all countries in the world.

Nope, I can go hang a fake PhD degree from MIT on my wall no problem.
I could walk around the streets with the fake degree hanging around my neck.
The police aren't going to come and arrest me, as no crime has been committed.
No fine is going to come in the mail from anyone.
You are free to make a fake degree, and you are free to be in possession of a fake degree. It's what you do with that fake document that could potentially get you caught under some law like fraud.
i.e. you won't be convicted of a crime because you just possessed a fake degree.

[SiliconWizard]

Not over here though!

We have a law article called "faux et usage de faux". That would roughly translate to "fake documents and use of fake documents".
It introduces things as such: "La fabrication et l'utilisation de faux documents sont des délits." Roughly: "The making and use of fake documents are offences."

Just *making* a fake document is punishable by the french law, even if you don't use it. That is called "délit de faux". It includes making fake diplomas, ID documents, and many others.

When you use it to claim something in return (for administrative, employment reason, whatever...), it is called "usage de faux".

From the law itself, both cases are punishable with up to 3 years prison and a fine of up to 45.000EUR. It's likely that judgments related to just making a fake document without ever using it are much lighter in practice than when it has been used, but the law itself doesn't clearly make a difference.

[iMo]

France is still inside the EU, therefore in most EU it works the same way

FYI - moreover, there have been many cases in EU recently the high profile people were fired from their positions because they cheated while they wrote their thesis, based on which they got an academic title. There are special systems scanning the documents searching for copy/paste texts. You also lose your title in such a case.

[soldar]

France is still inside the EU, therefore in most EU it works the same way

That's quite a jump there. I hope you didn't hurt yourself.

National legal systems of EU countries are their own with only minimal EU requirements about Human Rights and other general stuff.

A person can be accused of a crime in one EU country and take refuge in another EU country and not be extradited.

Even American states have different laws. Much more so in Europe.


But, yes, in some countries forging certain documents can be strict liability crimes while in others mens rea must be proven.

Forging currency and possession of forged currency is, AFAIK, a strict liability crime almost everywhere and anywhere.

Being in possession of a forged professional license, like being in possession of lock-picking tools, probably requires evil intent to constitute a crime in most Common Law countries. Of course, the nefarious intentions are why they got you in the first place so...

[soldar]

I guess the state of Oregon considered that the term "engineer" was legally meaning "licensed engineer" over there. Since the guy was living in Oregon, he was supposed to abide by local laws. That's still pretty stupid but hey...

He never represented himself as an engineer licensed in Oregon.  It wasn't only stupid, it was also wrong, as they later admitted.

[soldar]

there have been many cases in EU recently the high profile people were fired from their positions because they cheated while they wrote their thesis, based on which they got an academic title.

That's in the "first world" part of the EU. In Spain if you cheat you gain points because you are considered bright. Why work when you can cheat? Everybody does it!

Most famously our prime minister, Pedro Sanchez, put his name to a book that he didn't write and also had his master's thesis done for him. Bright guy and just who we need to deal with world powers in our name.

It has been reported in the media and he famously said he would sue for defamation the site that reported it. From that day that site carries a banner at the top which counts the number of days since the threat was issued "and the lawsuit has not arrived yet".  (304 days as of today.) The guy is a crook and a liar and Spain loves him for it. Greece exists only so Spain cannot be the worst EU country.

[SiliconWizard]

Greece exists only so Spain cannot be the worst EU country.

Ahem.

[wilmer]

I did not read this before. If this is true, than probably he just did not register at the  Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering. In fact, I change my mind, Oregon can fuck off. So if I would go there, not register myself, I wouldn't be allowed to use my title?

I'd be extending the big middle finger too.
Most practicing EE's in oz are not members of the Institute of Engineers Australia for example, nor is it a requirement for practically any EE job in the country.
They have a fancy Chartered Professional Engineer title, but it's well known that only wankers have that 

But in Australia, if you do the crime of been  electrical engineer and connect a wire at your home. You can get a fine of 1 million.

Please provide evidence of that. As far as I am aware you cannot be fined for doing your own wiring. What can happen though is that if something goes wrong then your insurance can be invalidated. Or if someone got injured and/or died as a result you might be liable. That differs from regular (non mains) EE work were using "best practice" usually is enough to legally protect you.
Yes, EE's like myself are not permitted to do our own wiring regardless of any level of qualification, technically not even allowed to change a power point. But you won't get fined for it. I am not aware of a single case were that has happened.

But the law explicitly said that you will be fine if you do electrical work. Not if you work as electrician. If someone decides to report that you change a socket. You will get fine. That law should be change to include a short path for engineers. A gap course should be enough and not 4 years of apprenticeship.

Sent from my Nokia 3.1 using Tapatalk

[EEVblog]

But, yes, in some countries forging certain documents can be strict liability crimes while in others mens rea must be proven.

Here in NSW for document forgery to be a crime you have to actually gain financial gain from it, or, like may be relevant in this example: "influence the exercise of a public duty"

http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s253.html

They even specify a valid defense being that: "No financial advantage was gained or no financial disadvantage was done."

So the act of actually forging and possessing and showing a forged document is not a crime. You even even allowed to trick people into believing it's genuine because to be a crime they must prove that you a) "to induce some person to accept it as genuine, and" gained financial advantage from it.

[wilmer]

What I see is that Oregon association lobby for creating a law that forces people to subscribe to them. it is not about a license is just a subscription.
A friend who works in the USA has never been required to produce a license or subscription to work as a maintenance engineer. She does not even validate the title in USA.