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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Mars helicopter
« on: March 31, 2021, 12:24:39 am »
Almost ready to be released:

 
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Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2021, 05:35:37 am »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2021, 06:52:54 am »
Arrrrrggggghhh! Get to da choppa!

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Offline joseph nicholas

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2021, 07:06:00 am »
Get your ass to Mars!
 
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2021, 12:48:29 pm »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

It was a last-minute add-on, and not part of the primary mission.  And it was already tested in a large vacuum chamber on Earth.  And, while cool, they really need to get on with the primary mission since the huge cost was about searching for signs of life.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2021, 01:15:29 pm »
And, while cool, they really need to get on with the primary mission since the huge cost was about searching for signs of life.
Steady on.....

Before diving into anything, it makes a lot of sense to check through each and every part of the package to make sure they are all working as expected.  This is all planned out - and I wouldn't expect them to rush it in any way.  It's not as if you could call roadside assistance.
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2021, 02:53:06 pm »
And, while cool, they really need to get on with the primary mission since the huge cost was about searching for signs of life.
Steady on.....

Before diving into anything, it makes a lot of sense to check through each and every part of the package to make sure they are all working as expected.  This is all planned out - and I wouldn't expect them to rush it in any way.  It's not as if you could call roadside assistance.

My point was...getting on with the checkouts of the primary mission.  It would be pretty foolish to have the rover crash or get hung up while doing something that wasn't the primary mission (which was over $2B).  Secondary missions are typically done...second.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2021, 11:43:08 pm »
Ah.  Fair point.

However, having said that .... the helicopter has captured the interest of the public - and that is a very powerful element in the willingness of the powers-that-be (that are ultimately answerable to their constituents) to provide funding.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 11:45:21 pm by Brumby »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 12:54:28 am »
And, while cool, they really need to get on with the primary mission since the huge cost was about searching for signs of life.
Steady on.....

Before diving into anything, it makes a lot of sense to check through each and every part of the package to make sure they are all working as expected.  This is all planned out - and I wouldn't expect them to rush it in any way.  It's not as if you could call roadside assistance.

My point was...getting on with the checkouts of the primary mission.  It would be pretty foolish to have the rover crash or get hung up while doing something that wasn't the primary mission (which was over $2B).  Secondary missions are typically done...second.

What's the rush? They're working on doing the primary mission, from what I understand there's quite a bit of waiting between the various steps. It's not like they're just goofing off getting ready to fly a helicopter around and neglecting the primary mission, some of this stuff can be done in parallel.

I half expect the helicopter to fall over and crash about 3 feet from the takeoff point but we'll see.
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2021, 01:46:21 am »
I'm expecting the helicopter to work.  They've already tested it in a near vacuum and winds on Mars are terribly weak.  I'm holding out for evidence of microbial life, though.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2021, 02:26:09 am »
I think I found the tech details: Mars Helicopter Technology Demonstrator
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2021, 01:43:13 pm »
Launch is delayed for some reason.  Now it's no earlier than the 11th.  I wonder if they need more time to charge the batteries.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2021, 03:03:08 pm »
Launch is delayed for some reason.  Now it's no earlier than the 11th.  I wonder if they need more time to charge the batteries.
Probably weather. While the winds are much less than in the movies with Matt Daemon, its still a helicopter.

Quote
Assuming that 20% of the power is at the peak load of 510 W and 80% is at a continuous load of 360 W, approximately 90 sec of flight is possible.
This is slightly disappointing, but understandable.

What would be the power dinamics of the flight? Martian atmosphere is much less dense, so it would need larger propellers or faster rotation. But on the other hand, if a propeller is in reduced atmosphere, and its moving less air, then there is less friction at the same propeller speed. Soo... With the same electrical power put in (assuming frictionless bearings and such) do you reach the same lift power? Only your propeller is much faster?
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2021, 03:16:13 pm »
A larger, stitched view, together with the mothership:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210403.html

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2021, 03:30:23 pm »
A larger, stitched view, together with the mothership:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210403.html

Oh, it still hasn't been dropped yet.
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 02:54:32 am »
It's dropped off now:

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 03:13:06 am »
"Hey fellas, wait for me!"
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:51:58 pm by MikeK »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2021, 06:18:53 am »
Apparently they are having issues

Quote
On Friday (April 9), the helicopter attempted to test its blades at full speed, the final precursor to taking flight, but that was the procedure that the watchdog timer cut short.

"The watchdog timer oversees the command sequence and alerts the system to any potential issues," NASA officials wrote in the statement. "It helps the system stay safe by not proceeding if an issue is observed and worked as planned."
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2021, 10:55:33 am »
Quote
"The watchdog timer oversees the command sequence and alerts the system to any potential issues," NASA officials wrote in the statement. "It helps the system stay safe by not proceeding if an issue is observed and worked as planned."

That's the most misleading description of a watchdog timer I ever read.

Offline dbctronic

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 01:17:53 am »
Yes, actually it's a waitdog timer, only has the brains to wait at a fixed rate of one second per second. Amoebas are much smarter.
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 02:38:01 am »
Why don't they call them deadman switches anymore?  :-//

You are not the only one who asked such questions.



 ;D

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2021, 04:44:55 am »
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was recalibrated on this over the weekend when a couple of TV reporters were at JPL and got to touch and handle a full scale model (perhaps backup hardware).  I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like.  Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall.  The rotors span well over a meter.  And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

The arguments about whether it is worth spending any time on this are complex without even bringing funding politics into it.  Even assuming the primary mission is to find life (or ascertain whether life does or ever has existed) the helicopter might be important.  If the proof of this does not happen to be along the rovers planned route the mission will fail.  Mars orbiters can only provide some level of guidance on the path to follow.  The mobile scouting capability provided by the helicopter might be important on this mission, and would certainly be important for a follow on mission if the question is not answered by the current rover.  Thus there is potential value now, and real value in proving the technology for a future mission.  The chance that this will not be answered soon is high given that all landers since Viking have had finding life some part of their purpose.  Each has found tantalizing evidence that might be indicative of life, but none has been conclusive.  Those launching each of these missions felt they were gathering the data that might answer the questions, but Mars proved mysterious.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2021, 04:50:17 am »
I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like.  Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall.  The rotors span well over a meter.  And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.   

...Running on a laptop-sized battery?  :-//
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Offline rs20

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2021, 06:35:11 am »
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was recalibrated on this over the weekend when a couple of TV reporters were at JPL and got to touch and handle a full scale model (perhaps backup hardware).  I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like.  Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall.  The rotors span well over a meter.  And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

The copter has a rotor span of 1.2m, but it's "only" 0.5m (4 dozen cm :-) ) high, not 1.5m (1.5m is nearly the height of the average adult woman).
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 08:52:57 am »
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was recalibrated on this over the weekend when a couple of TV reporters were at JPL and got to touch and handle a full scale model (perhaps backup hardware).  I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like.  Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall.  The rotors span well over a meter.  And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

The copter has a rotor span of 1.2m, but it's "only" 0.5m (4 dozen cm :-) ) high, not 1.5m (1.5m is nearly the height of the average adult woman).

Camera angles and all that.  In the pictures it appeared to be chest high to the female reporter.   I suppose I should have spent a few seconds googling it.  Even though I know once I clicked on that rathole I would have spent far more than a few seconds reading up on the design.   Even at half a meter it is far bigger than I imagined. 
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 09:39:49 pm »
Looks like it's postponed again.  Or at least they're not sure when it will fly.  They have to update software.  At least they're getting on with the primary mission...Thousands of photos from Perseverance have been uploaded in the past week.  Good!
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2021, 12:45:19 pm »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

It's not an almost nonexistant atmoshere... It's an atmosphere of (virtually all) Carbon-Dioxide. THAT gas is heavier than the 'mix' we have here
on Earth. (Let off CO2 extinguishers here, and it stays low to the ground). Therefore it is denser. Now, yes, Mars is smaller than Earth, and so the
Gravity on Mars is less, and it's the amount of Gravity (as well as the depth of atmosphere!) that determines the ground Pressure, and the resultant
effectiveness of such a 'rotating-wing'.  However, the lower Gravity also means that the downward thrust that is required for lift, is much less!
In fact a 'helicopter' on Mars, would require much less Power/Lift/Weight ratios, than anything here on Earth...   8)
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2021, 02:03:31 pm »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

It's not an almost nonexistant atmoshere... It's an atmosphere of (virtually all) Carbon-Dioxide. THAT gas is heavier than the 'mix' we have here
on Earth. (Let off CO2 extinguishers here, and it stays low to the ground). Therefore it is denser. Now, yes, Mars is smaller than Earth, and so the
Gravity on Mars is less, and it's the amount of Gravity (as well as the depth of atmosphere!) that determines the ground Pressure, and the resultant
effectiveness of such a 'rotating-wing'.  However, the lower Gravity also means that the downward thrust that is required for lift, is much less!
In fact a 'helicopter' on Mars, would require much less Power/Lift/Weight ratios, than anything here on Earth...   8)

Mars' atmospheric pressure is about 1% that of Earth.  That is an almost nonexistant atmosphere.  What it does have is mostly CO2, but it has so little of it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2021, 05:49:09 pm »
Whatever the case, I'm quite confident that the engineers who designed the helicopter had a sufficient understanding of aerodynamics and the Martian atmosphere to have properly accounted for all that. It's not like the thing was lashed together by a group of maker kids.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2021, 07:01:16 pm »
The watchdog tripped during the high-speed spin test? It seems to have a maker aspect, how does that not get caught during testing the software on earth.
 

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2021, 07:03:16 pm »
They have a communication time lag of several minutes and there is no GPS on Mars. I'd guess it's something as horrible as the sky crane. Or even more difficult since you want 3D movement instead of maintaining a certain position for half a minute or so.

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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2021, 08:11:30 pm »
I haven't looked into it, but I suspect the helicopter engineers weren't the usual group of engineers, since the helicopter was actually an add-on to the mission.  I'm just glad that deploying it didn't hang up the rover.  I would quickly get over the novelty of the helicopter flying on Mars, but the Perseverance rover should continue to provide valuable scientific observations for quite a while.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2021, 09:00:03 pm »
You seem kind of obsessed with the rover getting on with things. What's the rush? It isn't going to wear out just sitting there, and it doesn't have to be parked just waiting while the helicopter is sorted out. They have whole teams working on the project, they can multitask.
 
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2021, 10:23:05 pm »
Because...Science!
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2021, 01:08:04 am »
And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

Well, it's the same ballpark as RC 3D helicopters, it's carbon fiber. Although the Mars blades have a more aggressive profile than earth blades.
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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2021, 11:14:27 am »
Yah!

 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2021, 12:37:55 pm »
It flew 3m and landed!  :clap:

 
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2021, 06:05:35 pm »

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2021, 07:25:30 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



I'm in tears.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2021, 07:26:51 pm »
With the rate that it climbed I would say there is plenty of lift margin.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2021, 09:05:32 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



It reminded me of the opening scene in Empire Strikes Back.

What must those martians be thinking?
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2021, 10:23:28 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



I'm in tears.

Santos-Dumont was clearly one of the great pioneers of aviation.  And the 14-bis certainly deserves credits for several firsts, including first flight powered by a V-8 engine, first public flight by a standing pilot, first flight by a Brazilian in France and many others.  And if I understand how you are using the word homologated, the first aircraft successfully designed and flown to achieve a specific aviation prize. 

I somehow think you were trying to say something more with this post.
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2021, 11:10:09 pm »
Cute little dragonfly.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2021, 05:44:49 pm »
We are the UFOs on another planet now!
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2021, 06:34:58 pm »
We are the UFOs on another planet now!

Nope.  They're clearly IFO's.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2021, 07:42:44 pm »
It's now hovered at 5m high and moved 2m laterally! Any guesses on the next daredevil flight manoeuvrer?  ;D

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56849723


In other news (later in the same article), we have commenced the mission to pollute the Martian atmosphere with Carbon Monoxide, that didn't take long!

Quote
Also running further tests will be the team behind Moxie - the Mars Oxygen In-Situ Resource Utilization Experiment.

This toaster-sized device, which lives in the belly of the Perseverance rover, also posted an exploration first by drawing O₂ out of Mars' air.

The planet's atmosphere is dominated by carbon dioxide at a concentration of 96%. Oxygen is only 0.13%, compared with 21% in Earth's atmosphere.

Moxie is able to strip oxygen atoms from CO₂ molecules, which are made up of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms. The waste product is carbon monoxide, which is vented to the Martian atmosphere.

The Moxie team is running the unit in different modes to discover how well it works.

The expectation is that it can produce up to 10 grams of O₂ per hour.

Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?   :-\

An impressive Oxygen production rate though. I suppose if it wasn't producing a gaseous waste product, it would end up with a big pile of carbon!


« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:48:58 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2021, 08:11:23 pm »
Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?

Probably this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2021, 08:16:50 pm »
Ah yes, that makes sense. I was thinking in terms of 'you can't have O' rather than '1/2 O2'.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 08:18:57 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2021, 12:14:37 pm »
Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?

Probably this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"

ARRGGHH!!!  . . .
Oxygen exists in a Diatomic state/molecule.
2 x CO2  -->  2 x CO  +  O2    :box:
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2021, 12:35:01 pm »

Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?

Probably this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"

ARRGGHH!!!  . . .
Oxygen exists in a Diatomic state/molecule.
2 x CO2  -->  2 x CO  +  O2    :box:
Isn't that the same equation?

You can't have O but you can have half as much O2.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2021, 02:02:26 pm »
I'm assuming the authors of that article knew what they were talking about when they wrote that equation.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2021, 01:21:20 am »

ARRGGHH!!!  . . .
Oxygen exists in a Diatomic state/molecule.
2 x CO2  -->  2 x CO  +  O2    :box:
Isn't that the same equation?

You can't have O but you can have half as much O2.
In a volumetric sense, I suppose - but in chemical formula expressions, I was never guided into half of anything.  You get multiples of whole molecules in a result - not half ones.
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2021, 06:11:17 pm »
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2021, 08:31:40 pm »
Fourth flight is impressive:

"872-foot (266-meter) round trip"

Would be nice if this could do some scouting for the rover.  Would be really nice if it would video a descent into one of the caves.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2021, 08:37:33 pm »
It has been so successful that it's mission has been extended - it is going to be doing some scouting for the rover....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56951752
Best Regards, Chris
 


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