Author Topic: Mars helicopter  (Read 6757 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2021, 08:52:57 am »
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was recalibrated on this over the weekend when a couple of TV reporters were at JPL and got to touch and handle a full scale model (perhaps backup hardware).  I envisioned this thing a couple of dozen cm tall, very toy like.  Instead it is something like a meter and a half tall.  The rotors span well over a meter.  And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

The copter has a rotor span of 1.2m, but it's "only" 0.5m (4 dozen cm :-) ) high, not 1.5m (1.5m is nearly the height of the average adult woman).

Camera angles and all that.  In the pictures it appeared to be chest high to the female reporter.   I suppose I should have spent a few seconds googling it.  Even though I know once I clicked on that rathole I would have spent far more than a few seconds reading up on the design.   Even at half a meter it is far bigger than I imagined. 
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 09:39:49 pm »
Looks like it's postponed again.  Or at least they're not sure when it will fly.  They have to update software.  At least they're getting on with the primary mission...Thousands of photos from Perseverance have been uploaded in the past week.  Good!
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2021, 12:45:19 pm »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

It's not an almost nonexistant atmoshere... It's an atmosphere of (virtually all) Carbon-Dioxide. THAT gas is heavier than the 'mix' we have here
on Earth. (Let off CO2 extinguishers here, and it stays low to the ground). Therefore it is denser. Now, yes, Mars is smaller than Earth, and so the
Gravity on Mars is less, and it's the amount of Gravity (as well as the depth of atmosphere!) that determines the ground Pressure, and the resultant
effectiveness of such a 'rotating-wing'.  However, the lower Gravity also means that the downward thrust that is required for lift, is much less!
In fact a 'helicopter' on Mars, would require much less Power/Lift/Weight ratios, than anything here on Earth...   8)
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2021, 02:03:31 pm »
When I first heard about them planning on using a helicopter on Mars, I thought it was a joke. Helicopter in Martian almost nonexistent atmosphere? But apparently they were serious and this is probably even more impressive than the rover itself.

It's not an almost nonexistant atmoshere... It's an atmosphere of (virtually all) Carbon-Dioxide. THAT gas is heavier than the 'mix' we have here
on Earth. (Let off CO2 extinguishers here, and it stays low to the ground). Therefore it is denser. Now, yes, Mars is smaller than Earth, and so the
Gravity on Mars is less, and it's the amount of Gravity (as well as the depth of atmosphere!) that determines the ground Pressure, and the resultant
effectiveness of such a 'rotating-wing'.  However, the lower Gravity also means that the downward thrust that is required for lift, is much less!
In fact a 'helicopter' on Mars, would require much less Power/Lift/Weight ratios, than anything here on Earth...   8)

Mars' atmospheric pressure is about 1% that of Earth.  That is an almost nonexistant atmosphere.  What it does have is mostly CO2, but it has so little of it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2021, 05:49:09 pm »
Whatever the case, I'm quite confident that the engineers who designed the helicopter had a sufficient understanding of aerodynamics and the Martian atmosphere to have properly accounted for all that. It's not like the thing was lashed together by a group of maker kids.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2021, 07:01:16 pm »
The watchdog tripped during the high-speed spin test? It seems to have a maker aspect, how does that not get caught during testing the software on earth.
 

Online dietert1

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2021, 07:03:16 pm »
They have a communication time lag of several minutes and there is no GPS on Mars. I'd guess it's something as horrible as the sky crane. Or even more difficult since you want 3D movement instead of maintaining a certain position for half a minute or so.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2021, 08:11:30 pm »
I haven't looked into it, but I suspect the helicopter engineers weren't the usual group of engineers, since the helicopter was actually an add-on to the mission.  I'm just glad that deploying it didn't hang up the rover.  I would quickly get over the novelty of the helicopter flying on Mars, but the Perseverance rover should continue to provide valuable scientific observations for quite a while.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2021, 09:00:03 pm »
You seem kind of obsessed with the rover getting on with things. What's the rush? It isn't going to wear out just sitting there, and it doesn't have to be parked just waiting while the helicopter is sorted out. They have whole teams working on the project, they can multitask.
 
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2021, 10:23:05 pm »
Because...Science!
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2021, 01:08:04 am »
And at design speed are turning over 2000 rpm.  Very advanced materials in the blades to deal with centrifugal effects.

Well, it's the same ballpark as RC 3D helicopters, it's carbon fiber. Although the Mars blades have a more aggressive profile than earth blades.
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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2021, 11:14:27 am »
Yah!

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2021, 12:37:55 pm »
It flew 3m and landed!  :clap:

 
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Online RoGeorge

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2021, 06:05:35 pm »

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2021, 07:25:30 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



I'm in tears.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2021, 07:26:51 pm »
With the rate that it climbed I would say there is plenty of lift margin.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2021, 09:05:32 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



It reminded me of the opening scene in Empire Strikes Back.

What must those martians be thinking?
iratus parum formica
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2021, 10:23:28 pm »
That reminded me of the flight of the 14bis, the first homologated independent flight in the history of mankind, performed in front of a multitude for the whole world to see in October 23, 1906, in Paris, France.



I'm in tears.

Santos-Dumont was clearly one of the great pioneers of aviation.  And the 14-bis certainly deserves credits for several firsts, including first flight powered by a V-8 engine, first public flight by a standing pilot, first flight by a Brazilian in France and many others.  And if I understand how you are using the word homologated, the first aircraft successfully designed and flown to achieve a specific aviation prize. 

I somehow think you were trying to say something more with this post.
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2021, 11:10:09 pm »
Cute little dragonfly.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2021, 05:44:49 pm »
We are the UFOs on another planet now!
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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2021, 06:34:58 pm »
We are the UFOs on another planet now!

Nope.  They're clearly IFO's.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2021, 07:42:44 pm »
It's now hovered at 5m high and moved 2m laterally! Any guesses on the next daredevil flight manoeuvrer?  ;D

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56849723


In other news (later in the same article), we have commenced the mission to pollute the Martian atmosphere with Carbon Monoxide, that didn't take long!

Quote
Also running further tests will be the team behind Moxie - the Mars Oxygen In-Situ Resource Utilization Experiment.

This toaster-sized device, which lives in the belly of the Perseverance rover, also posted an exploration first by drawing O₂ out of Mars' air.

The planet's atmosphere is dominated by carbon dioxide at a concentration of 96%. Oxygen is only 0.13%, compared with 21% in Earth's atmosphere.

Moxie is able to strip oxygen atoms from CO₂ molecules, which are made up of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms. The waste product is carbon monoxide, which is vented to the Martian atmosphere.

The Moxie team is running the unit in different modes to discover how well it works.

The expectation is that it can produce up to 10 grams of O₂ per hour.

Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?   :-\

An impressive Oxygen production rate though. I suppose if it wasn't producing a gaseous waste product, it would end up with a big pile of carbon!


« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:48:58 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris

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Offline MikeKTopic starter

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2021, 08:11:23 pm »
Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?

Probably this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2021, 08:16:50 pm »
Ah yes, that makes sense. I was thinking in terms of 'you can't have O' rather than '1/2 O2'.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 08:18:57 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris

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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Mars helicopter
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2021, 12:14:37 pm »
Actually, I'm not sure I follow chemistry of that one though...  CO2 -> O2 + CO ?

Probably this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

"CO2 splitting, CO2 → CO + 1/2 O2"

ARRGGHH!!!  . . .
Oxygen exists in a Diatomic state/molecule.
2 x CO2  -->  2 x CO  +  O2    :box:
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 
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