General > General Technical Chat
Massive EV cement truck fire: official 'explanation' versus the facts.
CJay:
--- Quote from: EPAIII on December 21, 2023, 03:18:34 am ---A conventional fire in a parked vehicle in such a building could be handled by a fire department. It may even be handled by a vehicle owner, as I did that day when my truck had a fire. But if an EV has a battery fire, what can anyone do except TRY to evacuate everyone to a safe distance?
--- End quote ---
Sure.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/gatwick-airport-fire-dramatic-video-26808164
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-46290095
I don't think we're ready for EVs yet (for various reasons but we will be) but those two horrific fires were caused by conventional IC engined vehicles so your argument seems spurious at best.
CJay:
--- Quote from: Gyro on December 22, 2023, 01:56:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:49:27 am ---Airport car park! Been there. They are one of the loneliest places in any city. I wonder just how many cars were either on fire or completely burned out BEFORE ANYONE even noticed there was a fire.
...
If a battery fire can destroy 1500 vehicles in an airport car park...
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This one was spotted almost immediately (while it was just a single car), it's a busy car park. People tried to fight it with available fire extinguishers before being forced to retreat.
As previously detailed, it wasn't an EV, it was a Diesel.
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And the Liverpool Arena fire a few years ago which destroyed 1400 cars and the building was also an ICE vehicle.
EEVblog:
--- Quote from: tom66 on December 22, 2023, 03:54:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:49:27 am ---If a battery fire can destroy 1500 vehicles in an airport car park, think what it could do in the lower floors of a tall office building. One of the 9-11 aircraft was said to carry 20,000 gallons of jet fuel, which was the actual weapon used by the terrorists to bring those building down. With 90% of 1500 autos, each having a partial tank of gasoline you could easily have that same 20,000 gallons of fuel. And access to such an office building's parking area would be far, far more difficult for the fire department. I don't think you can glibly say that when all the fire departments get the correct tool, the problem is solved. They must get to that FIRST EV in time to actually use that device before the fire spreads out of control.
--- End quote ---
Building designers aren't idiots. They know car park fires happen. They know that putting an office block on top of a car park that can burn presents additional risk. Depending on the use, the buildings are designed to withstand different fire durations.
In the UK, a regular car park only needs to withstand fire for 15 minutes. That is, the fire can have spread to the next floor within 15 minutes. That sounds crazy at first, but think about it: car parks are wide, open spaces. Evacuation is easy. We care about humans. Cars can be replaced, people can't be. The fire doors and evacuation stairs have to withstand the fire for far longer, usually 60-90 minutes, giving sufficient time for fire fighters to stage an attack and search for anyone who could be trapped. It's notable in the car park fire in Liverpool, UK, in 2018, the car park was totally gutted, but the fire escapes were relatively untouched. There was only a bit of smoke damage, the fire doors had otherwise completely withstood the entire car park going up [1].
For something like a shopping mall, where there might be a populous retail area attached to a multistorey car park, the car park area is designed to contain the fire for as long as possible, with double fire-door systems linking the two (when you next visit one, see how they design this). The populated areas of the shopping mall can be evacuated quickly; the plans are well established. Units that have a large number of people, like a cinema, are placed away from the car park area (and will have their own fire escapes), as these will naturally take longer to evacuate. Fire alarm systems will be linked. The fire won't spread to the retail units for some time, but again, economic cost if it does, no lives lost, no big deal.
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My bunker undergrtound carpark (single level and rather small compared to my lab office building) has two huge fire doors. Not sure they are automatic, I've never really looked. Only ever seen one closed once. I always wondered why they bothered in such an otherwise small carpark complex. And this building is older than my lab building which has a far larger underground carpark, and like 5 times larger.
Marco:
--- Quote from: EPAIII on December 22, 2023, 05:24:55 am ---Water cooling to the cells. Interesting thought and it seems like a good idea.
But water boils and the steam escapes.
--- End quote ---
But ignoring physical damage it's just one cell. That's not going to bring the cooling loop to boiling. Electronics are cheap and small, detecting individual cell temperature shouldn't really be an issue.
Once the industry matures I just can't see individual cell failure leading to any significant accidents. These are teething problems.
G7PSK:
Most truck fires are caused by brake binding on trailers or under inflated tyres and drivers who either don't care or are half asleep, I was driving a truck where a diesel pipe cracked and was spraying diesel directly onto the exhaust manifold, I noticed a great white cloud following me, I pulled over and that is when I discovered the problem, no fire, patched the fuel line and was on my way again. If diesel was as inflammable as some suggest aerobatic display teams like the red arrows would be trailing long flames not smoke, the smoke is made by injecting diesel and dye into the jets exhaust.
Most vehicle fires and for that matter most fire in general are down to electrical faults.
The Luton airport fire had two different vehicles shown as the cause of the fire by the media, in the first one the showed a range rover from the back with flames shooting out horizontally from behind the near side front wheel, the number plate was not readable due to smoke and glare the other video showed a front view with a readable number plate but the fire was not the same. The police have arrested one person in relation to this fire, no idea if it was the driver of the range rover who according to some reports left his smoking vehicle with the engine running telling check in that that his car was on fire and he had to catch a flight for an important meeting and could someone deal with it.
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