General > General Technical Chat
'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
bd139:
You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: lukego on June 12, 2020, 02:18:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on June 12, 2020, 02:13:57 pm ---Without that basic information nothing can be done and nothing should be done.
--- End quote ---
I'm glad we settled this, then.
--- End quote ---
I'm not comfortable with that response. It is a deliberate attempt to cast my statement in a bad light by omitting the relevant context. That kind of debating tactic is commonly used by people that want to foment unrest, and has no place in a public forum like this.
So, again, what is the substance behind your statement?
lukego:
--- Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2020, 02:20:05 pm ---You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...
--- End quote ---
I'm opting out of this discussion because it seems like the reaction is very defensive. I could provide links to the discussions I'm talking about but the pattern here seems to be to "well actually" other people's points of view and I don't really see the value.
For my part I'm a bit disappointed. I see people saying they feel unwelcome on this forum, I see people here on this thread not believing that such people exist, I see Dave calling these people "toxic" without addressing what they say, and apparently Dave is even removing posts from the forum to shield them from criticism e.g. to avoid discussions about how EEVblog discusses the merit of women in electronics.
I suppose that's an "agree to disagree" situation.
Nominal Animal:
Just because some feel uncomfortable in a community does not mean the community needs to change.
Not too long ago, Dave called me a troll. That hurt, deep. I may be weird, but one of my core ideas is that I refuse to knowingly take advantage of others, and try to be useful to others. Calling me a troll is worse insult than calling me a fat cunt – or basically anything else. "Something something useless" is the worst insult I can imagine.
Then, he mentioned that I was making an argument nobody else was talking about, and I realized that that was true. I was the person bringing a bug collection to a birdwatching event. There is a connection, an important one to me, one that causes problems in real life, but that connection was irrelevant in that context. There was no malice either way, just frustration at the discussion not having a relevant point; the arguments never intersected, and thus no progress was made.
I also know that even though I only want to be useful, I have my sharp corners, and rather often offend others, or they just develop a dislike to me – or rather, how I express things, as they don't know me, they only read my output here on the intarwebs. That too is okay, and a big reason why I use a pseudonym and not my real name: it helps me not take it too personally. This forum also has "ignore list" support, if there are members whose output irritates you; the forum does not force you to interact with everyone.
So, I am someone who has been offended and who has unintentionally offended others. Does that mean I should change, or remove myself from here, or that the forum discussions should change so that such situations do not occur?
No. Conflict cannot be avoided. Conflict itself is not evil or bad, it is a fact of life. Intentionally causing conflict is bad, but it is actually quite rare.
(I do know some former members here who were so unhappy about how conflicts are resolved here that they left. That too is a valid choice.)
Fact is, especially online each individual is free to participate in whichever communities they like. Their internal rules and "culture" evolve naturally, as their membership evolves. Not everyone needs to feel welcome and to fit in every community, because that is impossible.
For example, I had to stop participating in Stack Overflow and StackExchange networks, because I am unable to grasp the intricacies of gender politics and the new requirements about how language should be used with relation to those. Even in writing, where I can fix my errors if I detect them, I still occasionally miswrite him/her. I just cannot convince my mind that gender or skin color is so important to some people that it must be taken into account whenever referring to that person or their output. To me, that is just .. alien. I was perfectly happy to use the singular 'they' and thus avoid the issue, until they changed the rules and labeled that too offensive (depending on whether the person involved accepts or finds it offensive). And I'm more interested in helping with the problems people have than in people, so I am not going to try and retrain/rewire my brain for that: it's too violent.
If one does not feel comfortable in a community, there are three options:
1. Leave, and find/found somewhere else more comfortable.
2. Change how you interact with others, so you can feel comfortable.
3. Change the community or everyone else.
The third option is favourite for people, because it involves the least amount of personal effort. It demands others accommodate oneself, because (emotions).
However, online, anyone can create a new community, based on whatever rules they want. Because of the first point, if that community is better, you only need to make sure the word about it spreads, and it will grow naturally. If it truly works better. This makes the first point the most natural action!
Humans are imperfect. I know I make errors, and even as adults, we can still grow: we can learn how to interact positively (not emotionally positively, but in a way that creates benefits for all participants) with just about anyone. In the past, when we were still hunter-gatherers, we did that all the time, and not just with people, but with animals, too. We even invented spirits and ghosts and elves and gods, because we decided that approach works well for interacting with the rest of the world too.
That means the second point is not, and should not, be about molding oneself to others' expectations, but to examine how one is interacting with others and exploring changing it – in different ways, directed by ones own mind, and not others' expectations – because it opens up new possibilities and new benefits to oneself.
All this leads to a simple conclusion: there is very little to be gained by demanding an online community changes or changes their rules because some feel uncomfortable there. There are obvious exceptions, like biased conflict resolution and unlawful activity, and those do come up every now and then in every online community, but it's more about moderation and not the community in general. Learning to co-operate, or leaving for somewhere else, perhaps even building a competing community, is always a better choice, because then there is the possibility of creating something positive – and not just changing something existing, and hoping the change is positive.
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: lukego on June 12, 2020, 02:37:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2020, 02:20:05 pm ---You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...
--- End quote ---
I'm opting out of this discussion because it seems like the reaction is very defensive.
--- End quote ---
That's a bizarre interpretation and reaction.
I'm trying to understand the points you are trying (and failing) to make. Without that how could I improve?
--- Quote ---I could provide links to the discussions I'm talking about but the pattern here seems to be to "well actually" other people's points of view and I don't really see the value.
--- End quote ---
Point to where I have indicated that. Don't omit context.
--- Quote ---For my part I'm a bit disappointed. I see people saying they feel unwelcome on this forum, I see people here on this thread not believing that such people exist,
--- End quote ---
There was a movie where the young protagonist said "I see dead people". Quite rightly that bald statement on its own wasn't believed!
--- Quote ---I see Dave calling these people "toxic" without addressing what they say, and apparently Dave is even removing posts from the forum to shield them from criticism e.g. to avoid discussions about how EEVblog discusses the merit of women in electronics.
I suppose that's an "agree to disagree" situation.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes those with a lot of experience can spot developing situations long before inexperienced people. That's true of many topics, including technology, politics, relationships,...
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