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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
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Simon:

--- Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 15, 2020, 08:34:17 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on June 15, 2020, 07:16:40 am ---This thread is descending into politics.
Let's hold a sweepstake on when it will be locked.

--- End quote ---
so throw your shit on while you still can...

--- End quote ---

Erm no, clearly this topic was going to go political and it could have been locked long ago. So long as it remains civil I don't mind but Dave obviously is the ultimate arbiter.
Simon:

--- Quote from: tom66 on June 15, 2020, 07:01:47 am ---Whatever the cause, this huge disparity in crime committed by black people is unique to the USA.  While you see some difference in other countries, it is well within the range of explanation of black people preferring to live within cities which have higher crime rates or lower socioeconomic status.  The legacy of slavery is one explanation, as is systematic racism. Why are black people 8x more likely to be jailed for possession of drugs, even though they are equally likely as their white counterparts to possess?

--- End quote ---

These things always have multiple causes and influences and a lot is historic. This is why SJW jumping up and down about one silly thing in isolation is not helpful. People don't just move from one part of the country to another because they feel like a change.
Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: tooki on June 14, 2020, 10:40:07 pm ---if a minority is telling us they feel oppressed, we need to listen, not dismiss it.
--- End quote ---
I'd go even further, and say that if anyone is telling us they are oppressed, we need to talk about it.

I don't agree that feeling oppressed is sufficient, because we cannot act on feelings alone; we must find the reasons for those feelings, and discuss what we – both at the individual level, and at the societal level – can and should do about it.  You know, like adults, for conflict resolution.


--- Quote from: tooki on June 14, 2020, 10:40:07 pm ---But it’s callous and arrogant to wholesale dismiss the grievances, as happens here on the forums every single time a progressive social issue is raised.
--- End quote ---
I disagree.  People like myself only dismiss the emotional argument and the demands for reparation, because we know from history that that does not fix anything; that we need to discuss the core reasons, honestly, to make a lasting change for the better.

For those who approach things socially/emotionally, that can feel like dismissing the issue, but it isn't.  People like me who approach things rationally/analytically find zero value in the emotional argument, and instead need to talk about the underlying core issues – because that is how we do everything: it is not a choice, it is how our brains work.

However, rather than talk about these issues, we are seeing terms being banned because of their alleged emotional subtext, mostly by people who do not themselves claim to have negative feelings, but claim that there are these 'other' people who do.  And I just cannot see anything rational in that: for one, those who are genuinely hurt should speak out aloud themselves, and the proxies shut up since it is not their place to claim what others are truly feeling; for two, banning words does nothing to fix or change the core reason; and most importantly, the entire premise just continues segregation between 'those allowed' and 'those not allowed'.

Finally: I, and many others, will never accept equity or equality of outcome, because we know from history that that is tyranny and will lead to death and misery.  We do strive for equality of opportunity, however.  People like me dismiss any amount of emotional argument for one or the other, because we simply do not perceive things in that manner; it is like you are arguing about colors to a blind person.  To come to a mutually beneficial agreement/outcome, we must talk at the level of possible action.  And at that level, people like I can show from history that banning terms, or restricting words for the use of a certain segment of the populace, only leads to added conflict and strife, and helps nobody.

I believe your (Tooki's) heart is in the right place.  I believe that there is a set of actions that lead to changes that would decrease the number of people who feel oppressed, but such actions are completely different than the ones argued from the social/emotional perspective.  I would love to see such things discussed (in USA, police reform is one; here in the rest of the Western countries, the police kill a hell of a lot less people each year!), but the emotive claims for immediate banning silence those.  Listening without talking does nothing.
DimitriP:

--- Quote ---But it’s callous and arrogant to wholesale dismiss the grievances, as happens here on the forums every single time a progressive social issue is raised.
--- End quote ---

I find bringing up "progressive social issues"  in technical forums very oppressive.

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: TimFox on June 14, 2020, 10:49:28 pm ---By the way, Nominal Animal, does "orjapiiskuri" literally mean "overseer" or "supervisor" in Finnish?
--- End quote ---
No, 'orjapiiskuri' = slave-whipper.
Overseer = 'valvoja': inspector, observer; also one who does not sleep.
Supervisor = 'ohjaaja': instructor, pilot/driver (for a vehicle), guide.
Leader = 'johtaja': leader, conductor, manager; the one in front.
Master's degree = 'maisteri', from "magister degree".
Master = 'mestari', as in best at something, or champion.
The closest word to master as in master/slave context, is probably 'isäntä', which is a derivative of 'isä', father, and means host/householder/landlord.  There is a female variant, 'emäntä', a derivative of 'emä', the root word for mother – although 'äiti' is nowadays used for humans, and 'emä' for animals – which means the same thing.  Both are a bit archaic, though, and mostly used when someone hosts an event or such.
When men were hired to work at a farm, they were called 'renki'; women hired for household tasks, 'piika'.

I do not think I've ever met a household servant myself.
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