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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

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0culus:

--- Quote from: fcb on June 15, 2020, 01:56:22 pm ---Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

--- End quote ---

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it.  ::)

tooki:

--- Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 03:49:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: fcb on June 15, 2020, 01:56:22 pm ---Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

--- End quote ---

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it.  ::)

--- End quote ---
True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

0culus:

--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 03:54:25 pm ---
--- Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 03:49:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: fcb on June 15, 2020, 01:56:22 pm ---Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

--- End quote ---

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it.  ::)

--- End quote ---
True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

--- End quote ---

[Emphasis mine] I disagree, and here is why (again speaking in the context of technical jargon, I'm not speaking for people being shitheads on the street or internet here): I think most will agree that almost no one in computer engineering is thinking (and if you'll indulge the reductio ad absurdum) "I'm going to enslave some black people" when they talk about a master and slave AXI4 bus interfaces, for instance. It's complete bullshit that calling bus interfaces master and slave should be seen as offensive in this context.

To paraphrase someone up the thread, railing on things like this is merely distracting from solving real issues. Dare I say, it even further stokes divisions amongst people by causing stupid fights over semantics that aren't hurting anything except someone's feelings.  :palm:

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on June 15, 2020, 03:14:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 15, 2020, 02:20:59 pm ---I suspect these people refuse to think rationally, and instead emote; certain posts in this thread have enforced that suspicion even further.

--- End quote ---
I think that it's more probably the other way around. Acting instinctively and emotionally is the default human condition, it takes a 'pause for thought' and effort to be strictly rational about something.
--- End quote ---
That's the initial reaction, sure; that's always instinctive.  I tried to express exactly that difference: letting initial reactions govern ones actions, as opposed to stopping and examining the thing that puzzles/scares/vexes oneself.  Instead of trying to find and fix the root cause, only looking for immediate soothing, demanding the "offense" be removed.  Me fail words.

By the way, something in what you mentioned about being used to about skin colour, made me realize something about myself.  I have been wondering whether I'm deluding myself about not caring about skin color, or whether my self-assessment is accurate.

I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

That does not mean I am or others with a similar background are somehow free of racism: we're just as bigoted as everyone else, it just isn't coupled to skin color. Other things trigger it.  I myself seem to have an instinctive instant dislike if someone is extra loud (but not drunk/a kid/otherwise impaired), bothers others without remorse, hog shared resources, don't stay away from my personal space, and so on, notably more than my non-Finnish friends.

Simon:
I have a couple of friends, they have a sign in their house or a replica of one. old school, it says "No blacks, no Irish, No dogs", she is Caribbean, he is Irish and they have a dog.

I saw on a facebook group a picture. The blurb mentioned the statue of king leopold or whoever it was that is the new historical hate target for slavery. The picture was of an african man sat on the floor staring at the severed hands and feet of hi daughter cut off because he was not producing enough. The picture is ancient and if the man or his daughter are alive I'd be surprised.

Sssssso, I replied that of course the moment the statue comes down the girl would get her hands and feet back. I was viciously attacked and called all sorts of slurs. Only one person was actually interested is talking to me about it. It's not just racists that are nasty sacks of shit, anyone is capable of being a sack of shit to someone when they get themselves emotively disturbed enough.

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