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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
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tooki:

--- Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 04:08:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 03:54:25 pm ---
--- Quote from: 0culus on June 15, 2020, 03:49:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: fcb on June 15, 2020, 01:56:22 pm ---Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

--- End quote ---

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it.  ::)

--- End quote ---
True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

--- End quote ---

[Emphasis mine] I disagree, and here is why (again speaking in the context of technical jargon, I'm not speaking for people being shitheads on the street or internet here): I think most will agree that almost no one in computer engineering is thinking (and if you'll indulge the reductio ad absurdum) "I'm going to enslave some black people" when they talk about a master and slave AXI4 bus interfaces, for instance. It's complete bullshit that calling bus interfaces master and slave should be seen as offensive in this context.

To paraphrase someone up the thread, railing on things like this is merely distracting from solving real issues. Dare I say, it even further stokes divisions amongst people by causing stupid fights over semantics that aren't hurting anything except someone's feelings.  :palm:

--- End quote ---
The thing is, though, who are we to tell others which contexts it’s ok to get offended in? Slavery, and to a much larger extent, the systemic racism that outlived slavery by a long time, is a deep and comparatively recent wound in the black American psyche. I have no frame of reference for what that must feel like. As such, the wisest course of action is to listen to those affected.

Just as straight people have no right to tell me (a gay white man) which gay slurs I’m allowed to be offended or hurt by or not*, I have no right to tell blacks when they are and aren’t allowed to feel offended or hurt.

I’m making a point of adding “hurt”, because I also think that the word “offended” might not actually be the right one in these situations.

Ultimately, my take on the matter is that making the effort to help your fellow human being feel more respected is rarely a bad thing. It has little impact on us, and can make a big difference to people who are hurting. It’s not a huge thing, and yeah, it’s largely symbolic. But symbolic things still help. (They just don’t absolve us from having to make the big changes.)


*for example, even within the LGBT+ world, there is substantial disagreement on the use of the word “queer”. For lots of younger LGBT+ folks, it’s an all-inclusive umbrella term reclaimed from the bigots. But for a lot of older LGBT+ people, it’s nothing but a vile slur that they cannot divorce from their lived experience of having it hurled at them, often alongside other verbal or physical abuse.
Kjelt:
The *list is easy
Goodlist
Badlist
And then you have Badhat hackers and Goodhathackers and in between the Gadhathackers.  :-DD

But the master slave is more difficult.
I even think boss - employee is going get downvoted in the near future.
Perhaps Coach-Player or Instructor-Trainee ,
The more I start to write the more ludicrous the whole thing becomes.
tooki:

--- Quote from: Simon on June 15, 2020, 04:19:29 pm ---I saw on a facebook group a picture. The blurb mentioned the statue of king leopold or whoever it was that is the new historical hate target for slavery. The picture was of an african man sat on the floor staring at the severed hands and feet of hi daughter cut off because he was not producing enough. The picture is ancient and if the man or his daughter are alive I'd be surprised.

Sssssso, I replied that of course the moment the statue comes down the girl would get her hands and feet back. I was viciously attacked and called all sorts of slurs. Only one person was actually interested is talking to me about it. It's not just racists that are nasty sacks of shit, anyone is capable of being a sack of shit to someone when they get themselves emotively disturbed enough.

--- End quote ---
:wtf: On what planet do you think that’s a respectful, productive way to engage in a rational debate?!? That’s an incredibly provocative, insensitive comment to make, and you deserved every damned bit of vitriol you reaped.
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 15, 2020, 04:11:28 pm ---I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

--- End quote ---

I'm light skinned and very dark haired (before it went grey). As a kid I used to live 200-250 metres from the sea on the south coast of England. Consequently during the summer I lived outdoors and almost permanently in swimming trunks. There's a photo of me in my parent's garden with sun-bleached blonde hair and skin the colour of that of a Sicilian farmer. So yeah, at least for part of my life, the question "what does he look like" would be dependent on the time of year too.
tooki:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 15, 2020, 04:11:28 pm ---I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: Cerebus on June 15, 2020, 04:41:59 pm ---I'm light skinned and very dark haired (before it went grey). As a kid I used to live 200-250 metres from the sea on the south coast of England. Consequently during the summer I lived outdoors and almost permanently in swimming trunks. There's a photo of me in my parent's garden with sun-bleached blonde hair and skin the colour of that of a Sicilian farmer. So yeah, at least for part of my life, the question "what does he look like" would be dependent on the time of year too.

--- End quote ---

With that said, I very much doubt your facial features change with sun exposure. Skin color is simply the most visible feature of the black race. And as the very word “racism” implies, that’s what it’s really about. :/
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