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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
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coppice:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on June 15, 2020, 07:08:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 06:02:38 pm ---In the UK the residents of Bristol seem happy at the moment that a statue of slave trader Edward Colson has just been pulled down, and streets and schools named after him are being renamed. They want this because they want to santize their city, and pretend they have a squeaky clean history. Its a terrible idea. 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a game plan.

--- End quote ---

Don't lump all Bristolians together. It ain't gert lush, me babber.

In fact, it is no better than racism, or classism, or any of the other divide-and-conquer pigeonholing techniques.

--- End quote ---
I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. Certain groups - the white washers, and their useful idiots - want these types of change.
coppice:

--- Quote from: Cerebus on June 15, 2020, 06:33:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 06:12:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 06:08:17 pm ---Not glorifying/celebrating ≠ sanitizing.

--- End quote ---
That's one of the excuses they use in 1984. Its sad they so many people right now are happy to side with the bad side in 1984.

--- End quote ---
Direct quote from '1984' to prove your assertion please, or I'll assert that is double-plus not a quote from Orwell.

--- End quote ---
Its years since I read the book, so digging out a specific quote would be a pain right now. However, if you have read it you should remember several things which were not sanitising to make the party look good, but something less innocuous. Of course, its the following famous line that really sums up the effects of erasure:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
james_s:

--- Quote from: Simon on June 15, 2020, 08:45:45 am ---These things always have multiple causes and influences and a lot is historic. This is why SJW jumping up and down about one silly thing in isolation is not helpful. People don't just move from one part of the country to another because they feel like a change.

--- End quote ---

People in general like a nice tidy cause-effect relationship. B happens because of A, so if we fix A then B will stop happening. In reality things are almost always far more complex and nuanced. It's very rare that any one thing exists in isolation and is caused by any one other thing. A side effect of this is that a huge amount of focus is giving to "fixing" one specific aspect akin to treating one of the symptoms of the disease and then it's pats on the back for a job well done but of course nothing really changes because nothing has been done about the root causes. As long as people blame the wrong thing(s) nothing will improve.
tooki:

--- Quote from: Simon on June 15, 2020, 06:38:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: dave j on June 15, 2020, 06:35:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 06:02:38 pm ---People need constant reminding of how badly things go wrong when society lets its guard down. In the UK the residents of Bristol seem happy at the moment that a statue of slave trader Edward Colson has just been pulled down, and streets and schools named after him are being renamed. They want this because they want to santize their city, and pretend they have a squeaky clean history. Its a terrible idea. 1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a game plan.

--- End quote ---
The text on the Colston statue's plaque reads "ERECTED BY CITIZENS OF BRISTOL AS A MEMORIAL OF ONE OF THE MOST VIRTUOUS AND WISE SONS OF THEIR CITY. A.D.1895". Slavery was abolished throughout the British Empire in 1833, so the people who erected it in 1895 knew full well that slavery was wrong. The real sanitizing of Bristol's history was in full swing in 1895.

--- End quote ---

So change the plaque!

--- End quote ---
Honestly, a very pragmatic solution. (I’m also OK with moving the statues, such that we aren’t destroying them, but aren’t putting them in places of honor.)
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 07:28:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on June 15, 2020, 06:33:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 06:12:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 06:08:17 pm ---Not glorifying/celebrating ≠ sanitizing.

--- End quote ---
That's one of the excuses they use in 1984. Its sad they so many people right now are happy to side with the bad side in 1984.

--- End quote ---
Direct quote from '1984' to prove your assertion please, or I'll assert that is double-plus not a quote from Orwell.

--- End quote ---
Its years since I read the book, so digging out a specific quote would be a pain right now. However, if you have read it you should remember several things which were not sanitising to make the party look good, but something less innocuous. Of course, its the following famous line that really sums up the effects of erasure:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

--- End quote ---

Oh, I've read it, twice, and am probably due for another reread. I just dispute that anywhere in 1984 is something that reads as an 'excuse' for Big Brother's party proposing anything like Tooki's statement "Not glorifying/celebrating ≠ sanitizing". Refusing to continue to celebrate a historical wrong 'un is not the same as making them an unperson during your day's work at Minitrue.

"That's out of 1984" is an oft quoted line to decry something that's nothing to do with the topics of 1984, most often said by people who've never read the book. It's usually an emotional "You're bad as the people in 1984" rather than a rational, reasoned refutation of someone's position.
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