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| tooki:
--- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 08:05:05 pm ---The people? --- End quote --- Yes, as in, not the government. --- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 08:05:05 pm ---Just how many people? What percentage of the population are these people? --- End quote --- Enough people. --- Quote from: coppice on June 15, 2020, 08:05:05 pm ---Could they win their goals through the ballot box? --- End quote --- Statistically speaking, no. Statistically, the will of the American people, even on things where there is overwhelming consensus, has essentially zero measurable impact on public policy: https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy When we are lucky and the ruling elite want the same thing the public at large wants, great. But where we disagree, the public loses every time. :( --- Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2020, 08:10:41 pm --- --- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 08:02:35 pm ---It’s not the government demanding the statues be taken down, it’s the people. Yes, they were racist assholes. They fought a fucking war against their own country for the right to keep slaves. It doesn’t get much more clear than that. (Remember, the US had already decided that slavery was bad.) I do agree with you to a point about judging through a different lens. But does today’s lens not give us the right to say “no, we aren’t going to glorify this guy any more”?? --- End quote --- In a "government of the people, for the people, by the people" what is the differentiation between "the government" and "the people"? Which people exactly are we talking about? All of the people? A specific group of people? There are a lot more historical figures being judged than confederate leaders. We don't have to glorify them but I don't want to pretend they never existed either and I don't agree with destroying art, especially historical art. If people don't want it on public land then it should be moved into a museum or something, not toppled. And it should be decided by a vote, not by mob justice. --- End quote --- I was responding to your claim that it was like in 1984 where the Party kept doing things to subjugate the people. In that book, the government clearly is not of, for, or by the people. As I already said, I’m absolutely in favor of retaining the statues and moving them to museums or whatever. As I also said, however, they’re mostly not nearly as “historical” as people think, having been erected as retaliation for the civil rights movement. |
| tooki:
--- Quote from: vodka on June 15, 2020, 08:13:32 pm --- --- Quote from: james_s on June 15, 2020, 07:43:28 pm --- --- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 11:37:56 am ---Law enforcement in USA is too rotten to be saved. It needs a total reboot. --- End quote --- What do you base this on and what do you propose replacing it with? I do not interact with the police often, but the times I have interacted with them I've always been impressed by their professionalism, and I've seen them deal with situations that I would not have the restraint to deal with myself. There are a lot of rather terrible and dangerous people out there who simply refuse to play by the rules and show a complete disregard for their fellow citizens, somebody has to deal with them and I don't know how to do it better than the way we do. My limited observations have been that police in this country are not fundamentally different than police in most other countries, and generally public approval has never fallen below 50% and typically sits much higher. A large majority of the population is not anti-police. --- End quote --- There are many example of "soft policy" with the criminals,in example Barcelona. https://twitter.com/i/status/1269672622360416256 https://twitter.com/i/status/1260311600466182144 https://twitter.com/i/status/1260543358059130882 https://twitter.com/i/status/1243625785908486145 --- End quote --- Nobody is saying to be soft on criminals. But it is possible to police without brutalizing the civilian populace. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: vodka on June 15, 2020, 08:13:32 pm ---There are many example of "soft policy" with the criminals,in example Barcelona. --- End quote --- I don't speak the language and am not very knowledgeable about the region so it's a bit hard for me to tell what's going on there. I'm wondering though how they would deal with the sort of violent, often armed criminals that are common in the USA. Or the repeat offenders, just a few months ago officials were fretting over what to do with a guy in Seattle who has been arrested >70 times for assaulting people and other crimes, they let him out yet again at one point and it was a matter of days before he attacked some random stranger. I'd love it if we didn't need the police but I've come to realize there are a significant number of people who are just determined to be problematic, they offend over and over and over and I have a hard time feeling sympathetic. I feel like my rights as a law-abiding citizen who minds my own business and doesn't go around harassing/attacking/victimizing my fellow citizens ought to be protected over those of a chronic offender who just refuses to be helped. I simply lack the patience to deal with people who refuse to get with the program no matter how many chances and how much help they are given. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 08:24:05 pm ---Nobody is saying to be soft on criminals. But it is possible to police without brutalizing the civilian populace. --- End quote --- Of course it's possible, and the vast majority of the tens of thousands of police officers do not brutalize the civilian populace. I do not personally know anyone who has ever been brutalized by the police. I know plenty of people who have been brutalized by crooks though, a friend of mine was mugged just a couple of years ago when he lived in Chicago, a couple of guys armed with a handgun stopped him on the street, took his wallet and phone and one of the guys punched him and they ran off. That's not an isolated incident. Police that brutalize civilians need to be dealt with, but I do not agree that the whole system is beyond saving. In a population of 330 million with several tens of thousands of police a few hundred incidents a year nationwide is near the noise floor. |
| Simon:
--- Quote from: tooki on June 15, 2020, 08:02:35 pm --- I do agree with you to a point about judging through a different lens. But does today’s lens not give us the right to say “no, we aren’t going to glorify this guy any more”?? --- End quote --- Through today's lenses several cherished and very funny episodes of TV are being removed. Rather than let them stand as a testament of our past they are being erased by taking them off the air. a character who is clearly dullalli being a bit racist is not saying that what he says is right, it is an example of the crazily unacceptable things that even in the 70's were unacceptable that a dullalli old man might say. |
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