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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

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EEVblog:

--- Quote from: james_s on June 22, 2020, 04:56:39 am ---I'm reminded of the marches for breast cancer and such, it has never made sense to me, marching around does nothing to fight cancer, everyone is already aware so there's no need to raise awareness, and if you want to raise money why not do something useful/productive and donate the proceeds to an organization that actually researches cancer treatment? It's much simpler to just go join a march though and feel like you're making a difference.
--- End quote ---

Reminds me, I should do another one of these if the opportunity arises again. Sadly though that was the last year that event was run.

magic:

--- Quote from: julianhigginson on June 22, 2020, 12:44:48 am ---I mean, here's a guy rallying against the use of the word "you" in singular form from a few centuries ago. (bottom paragraph of page)
IF ONLY WE HAD LISTENED TO HIM, WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS.

--- End quote ---
Are you arguing that English isn't the most dumbed down, least expressive and most illogical of European languages? :P

And nowadays you also have singular 'they' and even singular 'are' :wtf: to use it with and you will soon have two different names for SPI masters. Way to go.

Maybe the Anglosphere doesn't perceive it as a problem, all of you wallowing in your cesspool since the day of birth, but your whole culture is increasingly looking like a joke to outsiders. Just sayin' :-//

edit
And why you need to care?
Because you have outsourced everything including reproduction and education and run 100% on immigration.
If more people like blueskull or me keep deciding to bail out of there, you will be done for.

edit edit
Do you know what is the entirety of modern Western culture summed up in one sentence?

It's taking pride in being so "powerful" and "progressive" that you can get away with dumb ideas.

But it won't last. The UK was a global power just 100 years ago and today they are totally irrelevant and, most recently, shunned by a large chunk of continental Europe because of their internal conflicts and indecision. So much for the UK.
Are you willing to bet that America will still be such a big deal in 2120 if they are built on more or less the same culture and ideology?

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: magic on June 22, 2020, 05:47:22 am ---Are you arguing that English isn't the most dumbed down, least expressive and most illogical of European languages? :P

And nowadays you also have singular 'they' and even singular 'are' :wtf: to use it with and you will soon have two different names for SPI masters. Way to go.

--- End quote ---

I appreciate the sense in which you say "nowadays", but that will confuse Americans.

The singular "they" has been in documented use since 1375, i.e. >600 years.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

I do understand that English isn't your first language, so you are forgiven :)

julianhigginson:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 22, 2020, 01:55:38 am ---I find it odd that you treat this as fait accompli, something that has happened organically, and not as a very small minority trying to force everyone else change, because of their lack of control over their own emotions.

--- End quote ---

No, the deal is, language changes all the time, and people used to deprecated terms get upset about it all the time. It's a natural feature of any living language. I get a bit unerved by modern language trends myself, but at least I've got the presence of mind to analyse why rather than just react angrily.

I'm sure there's even earlier rants about language changing than the one I linked, though that one does seem particularly hilarious now. 
Singular, you, indeed...  blasphemy!

what's interesting is the very selective nature of offence that "some" people have about "some" changes.


--- Quote ---You mean,

--- End quote ---

NOOOOOOO!!!!!! 17TH CENTURY GUY IS TRIGGERED ENOUGH ALREADY!!! PLEASE STOP! HE WILL CRY!! THOU RT DOIN' HIM BIG SAD!


--- Quote ---any harm you are willing to measure.  I've already mentioned a lot of harm it actually does – in particular, in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery, because using the term is now considered offensive.

--- End quote ---

I tried to find what you were talking about - is that the thing you wrote on laws around street prostitution causing worse human trafficking (slavery) a few pages back?? because I don't see how changing some words around communication between inanimate objects is at all an even remotely analogous thing. Like... one is a law, and the other isn't a law for a start... please use your famous logic and reason to make the link if you can.

Also, risking going far off topic "the progressives" are generally sex worker positive these days, so any modern prostitution laws which drive sex work underground that you might like to point out are likely to be an authoritarian thing, more than a something someone who is happy to change the usage of "master and slave" in tech contexts also supports.

I don't claim to represent anyone but myself, but I'm pretty sure most people talking about changing the words master and slave in technical contexts are fine for you to use slavery terms to describe actual slavery.  Even as they'd prefer to start moving away from slavery terms used to describe things that are not slavery (like, say, two inanimate objects communicating, EVEN when one initiates and controls the communication)

My understanding is it's not be about making the words disappear, it's about removing those words form the context of technical discussions where they apparently are used by some people to deliberately bully other people. And maybe also even about not diluting/normalising them.



--- Quote ---By the way, I do understand I really should not have replied to you.  You are way beyond changing your opinion on this, no matter what kind of factual evidence anybody would show, because just like certain other members here, and a vast majority of those demanding equity, you are ideologically possessed:  No critical thinking and analysis, only repeating the same unfounded emotionally-based arguments and demands over and over again.

--- End quote ---

no way. The most emotional arguments in here by far are the slippery slopes. Pure imaginary fearmongering. NOTHING to do with the subject at hand, 100% emotional reaction.

Now I've held off quoting any of them, because rather than calling anyone in particular out, I was kind of thinking some people might like the chance to read back on what they wrote and consider that maybe changing some terminology in relation to communication between machines isn't actually going to lead to the actual end of the world... but I'm more than happy to cut and paste someone's emotional hysteria from earlier in this thread, if you'd like. I can guarantee you'll find no hysteria at that level from the people in here who are OK with the idea of changing a few words.

And while we're talking about emotional arguments, another fun thing I've seen in this thread is thought terminating cliches... (this is something you see from people of all walks of life - but when conservatives get so triggered and upset by an idea that they can't even discuss it, they tend to throw up words like "SJW" and "socialism" and these are such BAD HORRIBLE terms that anything you spit them at is instantly destroyed in your own mind, and doesn't need to be considered any further)

If you want to read up a bit on thought terminating cliches you might come to notice that a few arguments in here against this proposed terminology change are the exact mirror image of some coloured haired tumblr using teenager yelling "actual nazis" at people who admitted they ate at a mcdonalds once.

Hopefully you're capable of noticing nobody in the pro change of terminology side in this thread has called anyone a Nazi. But you can find at least one or two "SJW"s used in a certain way. (#notallpeoplewhosaySJW)  It's certainly an indication of people getting emotionally invested in a position and refusing to think about it at all.....

Again, I'm not looking to victimise anyone or call anyone in particular out, but maybe some people will recognise their own language here and have a think about what they want to be a reflection of.

And as for the cherry on top of this precious wonder of a paragraph you gifted me: At the end of the day logic and rationality is  process,  not a marketing buzzword.. you show the world you are capable of following a logical process by the quality of your arguments. Not by sitting there smugly and claiming "I AM LOGICAL, YOU ARE IDEOLOGICALLY OBSESSED" without managing to do the work to show it... That's just a bunch of empty positioning designed to market yourself or your argument as valuable and smart without having to put the work into it.


--- Quote ---I feel bad for you, because I know you believe you are on the "good side", and believe this is all for a positive outcome, and that "we" are just being an obstacle for progress.  A perfect example of why the old adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is so apt.

--- End quote ---

I feel bad for you, because I know you believe you are on the "good side", and believe all this is a massive injustice against all the good people who happily use the words master and slave every day but have never once lynched anybody, and that "we" are simply causing trouble for the sake of it. A perfect example of why the old adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is so apt.

julianhigginson:

--- Quote from: SilverSolder on June 22, 2020, 03:57:57 am ---Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

--- End quote ---

Awesome idea. Yes, Lets do it!

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