General > General Technical Chat
'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
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julianhigginson:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on June 22, 2020, 10:25:23 am ---That was the most recent example from Finland.  The problem is not technical, but political: because the politicians find the topic offensive, and it's not their constituents or own children that are being trafficked, they find it easier to just vote to table the issue than think about it.

--- End quote ---

And what does hypocrisy in politics have to do with changing the use of technical terms? I'm pretty sure politicians don't talk much about the details of digital communications protocols.

I put it to you that we can stop using master and slave to describe digital communications protocols, AND we can ALSO lobby politicians to show them that modern slavery is an issue that they need to be doing something about, or suffer the consequences at the next election.

So what are you doing with your politicians to show them that you care about extinguishing modern slavery? I mean, it's so vitally important an issue to you.. surely you've at least signed a petition or something? have you spoken to your local representative about any of this?

As it is, I *have* actually discussed the problem of slavery-like situations for low wage temporary visa workers on Australian farms with my local federal government member. (For what little that's worth)  Again, what have you done? And how does stopping using master and slave in technical communications context undo that work?


--- Quote ---It is the exact same thing.  By labeling the terms themselves offensive, you eliminate any discussion about them.
(snip)
How much does banning "master" and "slave" help the around ten million humans in slavery right now?
Oh, I see; this is not intended to help them, just to make sure that people in Western countries do not need to think about slavery, because the entire concept offends them.  Gotcha.

--- End quote ---

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

I'm starting to feel that you're not engaging this discussion with good intent. who could honestly believe that changing the use of words in a technical context is about removing any and all discussion on real slavery?



--- Quote ---You'd be wrong; that's the thing.

--- End quote ---

So prove it then.  Prove right now that changing the use of master and slave in a technical context will actually stop anyone from talking about actual modern slavery. Causal links right through from A to B, please.

I'll wait...


--- Quote ---"Master" and "slave" are technical terms that describe a relationship.  They are not intrinsic to human slavery,

--- End quote ---

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.



--- Quote ---and are ubiquitous in current technology, information science, and software engineering. 

--- End quote ---

but surely thou realise'st they don't HAVE to be going forward.


--- Quote ---To insist that their use in a technical context is offensive, is to insist that nobody mention slavery except in an inoffensive manner.

--- End quote ---

not sure exactly what you mean by "innofensive manner", but I think that I provide a pretty solid counterexample:

I'm happy to say that master and slave is a terminology in technical communications language whose time should come to an end.

I'm also happy to say that modern slavery is absolutely reprehensible, and all relatively well-off people (including me and you) benefit in some way from its place in worldwide systems of production right now, and we all need to address it and its causes as a priority by focusing on the reality around all of it. No matter how uncomfortable that may make anyone.
julianhigginson:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2020, 10:51:59 am ---
Sure, post away.
(snip)
yes tradition matters, consistency in technology terms and units and others things matters a lot. Vastly more so than so obscure example you might have of someone being "bullied" by the use of the terms.
Even if you posted 10 clear cut examples, do you realise what a nothing-burger that is in the scheme of generations of use of the terms in the industry.
So my point stands.

--- End quote ---

So again, you say you want me to do a bunch of work finding something specific for you, but you have also said that even if I do it won't make any difference.

You know, that's not really a great way to get people to do stuff for you.
EEVblog:

--- Quote from: julianhigginson on June 23, 2020, 01:22:24 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2020, 10:51:59 am ---
Sure, post away.
(snip)
yes tradition matters, consistency in technology terms and units and others things matters a lot. Vastly more so than so obscure example you might have of someone being "bullied" by the use of the terms.
Even if you posted 10 clear cut examples, do you realise what a nothing-burger that is in the scheme of generations of use of the terms in the industry.
So my point stands.

--- End quote ---
So again, you say you want me to do a bunch of work finding something specific for you, but you have also said that even if I do it won't make any difference.
You know, that's not really a great way to get people to do stuff for you.

--- End quote ---

 :palm:
YOU are the one advocating for this change which the majority of people consider a ridiculous waste of time and likely detrimental to the industry.
Therefore YOU need to do the work to convince US that's it's a good idea, that's how it works. As for "it won't make any difference", I'm just pointing out realistically what finding a few examples is likely going to mean in the scheme of things. Not my problem, that's your problem. You want this change, so find a convincing enough argument to win us over. That starts with examples of your claim that people use these terms in tech to abuse others.
And BTW, even if this change did somehow magically happen in the industry and the majority started to use something else, that's not going to stop those few people who want to abuse someone from using the term. Therefore the change does nothing in that regard.
If you can't convince us, we will happily go with our default position which is  ::) and continue to use the term was have always used for generations.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---Surely a woman shouldn’t be forced to wax testicles if that makes them feel uncomfortable
--- End quote ---

Good example where using 'he' or 'she' in place of 'them' would be proper and remove ambiguity. But doing so would rain down nukes.
PlainName:

--- Quote ---Prove right now that changing the use of master and slave in a technical context will actually stop anyone from talking about actual modern slavery.
--- End quote ---

If it doesn't, what's the point of banning the words or concept? Surely they are either acceptable in appropriate context or they aren't, and if they aren't then they can't be used and thus can't be discussed.
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