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'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
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coppice:

--- Quote from: edy on June 25, 2020, 04:07:45 pm ---I wonder if anyone every encountered the terms "Master" and "Slave" in the Old Testament and realized that they have a very different meaning than the more contemporary understanding. A "slave" was more like an "indentured servant" and any mistreatment of this person by their "Master" would result in their immediate freedom and damages paid to them and charges against the "Master" in court. As well, the "Master" would have to provide for their servant food, clothing, shelter and a standard of living that was comparable to theirs or better. The "slave" could not work more than a MAXIMUM of 6 years of service, and the Master would have to provide them with enough (money, clothing, etc) to last them a while to get a foothold in society. Any wife or children of the servant also went free with them.

The reason for the person even falling into the "indentured servant" state was usually due to needing to work off a debt, or sometimes it was imposed by the court for either causing someone damages or due to a crime they committed. It was designed to be a rehabilitation and to allow the person to work back trust and work ethic in the society. "Masters" therefore had to be chosen carefully and knew they had obligations and responsibilities to their "slave", as much as the "slave" did.

The price a "Master" would pay for a "slave" (indentured servant) was commensurate with how much the indentured servant was in liability to another party C. If the indentured servant caused damage, was in debt or committed a crime against party C, and the court ruled they had to pay $6,000 for example to party C.... If the person couldn't pay it, a "Master" could pay on their behalf (almost like a bond) and now come under their wing and work off the debt by helping the Master. The amount $6,000 would determine the number of years or the type of labor or work involved or negotiate between slaves/masters in a market system.

Anyways, modern and biblical conceptions of "Master" and "Slave" were very different. The words are very much difficult to use today, with all of the easily-offended people. But times change. Even with Hard Drives I am not convinced they really mean or convey the proper relationship either. Maybe Dominant/Submissive?  :-DD  Then you'll get flack from the BDSM crouds...  :-DD

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The slavery laws in most western countries covers indentured servitude as well as the total ownership for life arrangement most people think of as slavery. I think you've only read a part of what the bible says about slavery. What you described above is the conditions for enslaving other Jews. When enslaving foreigners there is no time limit. Its what most people think of as slavery today. Also, the extent of mistreatment which the bible permits is pretty severe. You can't beat a slave to death, but there's some wording about being allowed to beat them so badly that they can't get up for a day or two.
magic:

--- Quote from: tom66 on June 25, 2020, 08:13:35 am ---Equality of outcome?  Are we really going down that rabbit-hole?

--- End quote ---
Yes, I think so. Parts of the world are pretty much in a free fall :P


--- Quote from: tggzzz on June 25, 2020, 08:14:26 am ---Your self-description is noted.
I tend to think the best of people, unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise.
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Think of it as just neurodiversity :-+
There is nothing wrong with people of sociopathy.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on June 25, 2020, 08:14:26 am ---You removed the context for my statement in order to be able to make your point. That is not good practice. Here is the context; I'm content to let anybody else make up their own mind...
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Okay, :palm: and :-+ for the google links which got me :-DD

I tend to remove nested quotes for brevity, anyone can click the link to see the original quoted post anyway.


--- Quote from: EEVblog on June 25, 2020, 08:56:24 am ---And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

--- End quote ---
Meh, if I were to troll I wouldn't try to point out people's mistakes but keep going...
edy:

--- Quote from: coppice on June 25, 2020, 04:56:46 pm ---The slavery laws in most western countries covers indentured servitude as well as the total ownership for life arrangement most people think of as slavery. I think you've only read a part of what the bible says about slavery. What you described above is the conditions for enslaving other Jews. When enslaving foreigners there is no time limit. Its what most people think of as slavery today. Also, the extent of mistreatment which the bible permits is pretty severe. You can't beat a slave to death, but there's some wording about being allowed to beat them so badly that they can't get up for a day or two.

--- End quote ---

While the laws in the Old Testament were considered radically progressive towards creating a moral ethical society at the time (compared to the otherwise barbaric contemporaneous practices of the day)  I think civilization over the past 3000 years has evolved beyond the literal word in the Bible. It was a step in creating improved conditions for human societal evolution but certainly not the last, and we can look back now and laugh but 3000 years ago it was like a paradigm shift in most people's thinking to the societies in which they grew up.... "You mean I can't kill my slave, I can only beat them so they can't get up for 2-3 days?".  :palm:

I still propose "Dominant/Submissive" (and all it's sexual connotations)... From a "How Stuff Works" page I found the following explanation:


--- Quote ---To allow for two drives on the same cable, IDE uses a special configuration called master and slave. This configuration allows one drive's controller to tell the other drive when it can transfer data to or from the computer. What happens is the slave drive makes a request to the master drive, which checks to see if it is currently communicating with the computer. If the master drive is idle, it tells the slave drive to go ahead. If the master drive is communicating with the computer, it tells the slave drive to wait and then informs it when it can go ahead.
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So the Dominant/Submissive even works because it is only applicable when there is a cable CHAINING the drives together.   :-DD  See, it all fits!!!! Just replace every "Master" with "Dominant" and "Slave" with "Submissive" and it makes perfect sense.... with chains involved, these hard drives are up to some crazy relationship!  :-DD

james_s:

--- Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2020, 01:37:57 pm ---Its quite normal to see this happening in disadvantaged groups. Many working class kids try to shame anyone in their group who tries, through hard work or raw talent, to make progress in life. The colour of their skin is irrelevant.

--- End quote ---

I think it's even lower level than that. Humans are fundamentally tribal animals, they tend to shame anybody who is an outsider, who doesn't fit in with the tribe. Whether that's because of their race, nationality, political leanings, religion, or anything else. It's the same reason if you look among teenagers there are the jocks, goths, punks, nerds, etc who tend to congregate together and tease others who different than themselves. This is fundamental hardwired human behavior, we can use our intelligence to override it to a significant extent but it will always exist.
coppice:

--- Quote from: james_s on June 25, 2020, 08:12:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on June 24, 2020, 01:37:57 pm ---Its quite normal to see this happening in disadvantaged groups. Many working class kids try to shame anyone in their group who tries, through hard work or raw talent, to make progress in life. The colour of their skin is irrelevant.

--- End quote ---

I think it's even lower level than that. Humans are fundamentally tribal animals, they tend to shame anybody who is an outsider, who doesn't fit in with the tribe. Whether that's because of their race, nationality, political leanings, religion, or anything else. It's the same reason if you look among teenagers there are the jocks, goths, punks, nerds, etc who tend to congregate together and tease others who different than themselves. This is fundamental hardwired human behavior, we can use our intelligence to override it to a significant extent but it will always exist.

--- End quote ---
Any deviation from the middle of a bell curve - tall/short, fat/thin, etc - marks someone out for some derision. However, the vitriol poured on someone trying to get ahead in life can be on another level.
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