Author Topic: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice  (Read 7073 times)

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Offline metebalci

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2023, 07:25:22 am »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.

Back when I had ears and CDs were new, I and a friend did A-B comparisons between a CD and vinyl. His setup was good, but not audiophool. We could tell a difference, but we could not tell which was which nor which was better.

What about binaural recording ? :)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2023, 08:37:52 am »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.

Back when I had ears and CDs were new, I and a friend did A-B comparisons between a CD and vinyl. His setup was good, but not audiophool. We could tell a difference, but we could not tell which was which nor which was better.

What about binaural recording ? :)

Question in the second paragraph: where exactly would you put the dummy head?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline metebalci

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2023, 11:05:57 am »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.

Back when I had ears and CDs were new, I and a friend did A-B comparisons between a CD and vinyl. His setup was good, but not audiophool. We could tell a difference, but we could not tell which was which nor which was better.

What about binaural recording ? :)

Question in the second paragraph: where exactly would you put the dummy head?

Where I would be sitting. I understand the difficulties, I was just trying to say for some situations I think the answer is simple but particularly for large environments yes I agree. I am actually amazed how good they are recording and mixing.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2023, 11:53:58 am »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.

Back when I had ears and CDs were new, I and a friend did A-B comparisons between a CD and vinyl. His setup was good, but not audiophool. We could tell a difference, but we could not tell which was which nor which was better.

What about binaural recording ? :)

Question in the second paragraph: where exactly would you put the dummy head?

Where I would be sitting. I understand the difficulties, I was just trying to say for some situations I think the answer is simple but particularly for large environments yes I agree. I am actually amazed how good they are recording and mixing.

And where would you be sitting? Why there and why not elsewhere?

Depending on where you are sitting, you will hear the music differently. Which "different" is "right", and why are the other positions "not right"?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline metebalci

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2023, 02:29:59 pm »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.

Back when I had ears and CDs were new, I and a friend did A-B comparisons between a CD and vinyl. His setup was good, but not audiophool. We could tell a difference, but we could not tell which was which nor which was better.

What about binaural recording ? :)

Question in the second paragraph: where exactly would you put the dummy head?

Where I would be sitting. I understand the difficulties, I was just trying to say for some situations I think the answer is simple but particularly for large environments yes I agree. I am actually amazed how good they are recording and mixing.

And where would you be sitting? Why there and why not elsewhere?

Depending on where you are sitting, you will hear the music differently. Which "different" is "right", and why are the other positions "not right"?

I am not talking about subjective difference (recording each instrument individually and creating a virtual mix for each location is another topic), naturally each seat in a concert hall can be different. I hardly remember the lectures and there are probably changes but a hall is probably optimized acoustically for certain locations, at least these are the points measurements are probably made. I guess in any environment even on a street, one would want to face the sound source to not have a major imbalance and want to be in a proper distance depending on the volume. I dont think finding a reasonably proper location is a question here. Just putting a dummy head there does not resolve all issues as far as I know, that is a bigger problem, if not binaural records would be much more common. However, binaural records are much better at stereo imaging at least to my experience, which is not surprising since all others are to some extent is mixed for an artificial space (since as you said for a large space there are a lot of mono/stereo different types of microphones). As far as I remember, it is also not only hearing from two ears, but also movements of head improves the subjective experience, that is partially also why spatial audio wants head tracking (eg airpods).
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2023, 02:35:17 pm »
I think the where you are sitting is being either over thought, or strong evidence that more reproductive precision is required.  One on end of the argument, any seat is fine as long as you would be happy with that seat in a live performance.  On the other hand, if you want recordings from a bunch of different locations so you can make a seat selection for your next live performance the answer gets complicated.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2023, 02:35:40 pm »
Aficionados of different concert halls know where the best seats are for serious listening.
In some opera houses, the music lovers know about cheap seats with lousy sight lines but good acoustics.
I was told about these seats at the Bayerische Staatsoper, but I only got there once (an excellent seat 1/3 back in the orchestra, dead center left-right).
Flying back from Japan on a long flight, I had an interesting chat with a professional acoustics engineer who had carefully surveyed several European halls for this purpose.
Unfortunately, we could not compare notes about my home city (Chicago), where I prefer the front of the first balcony at Orchestra Hall.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2023, 02:43:09 pm »
While those aficionado approved seats are undoubtedly good I would be willing to bet that folks with preferences for subsections of the music, brass or woodwinds as examples, have preferences that are subsets of these, or even outside of them.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2023, 03:10:43 pm »
I think the where you are sitting is being either over thought, or strong evidence that more reproductive precision is required.  One on end of the argument, any seat is fine as long as you would be happy with that seat in a live performance.
Most halls will have reflections that cause peaks & valleys for certain frequencies. This makes recording using an artificial head almost a fruitless exersize. One of my mentors who previously had worked at the R&D department for an electronic organ manufacturer, had an interesting story about this subject. At some point they wanted to build a digital church organ. So they took a good quality recorder and made recordings of a real church organ. They reproduced the waveforms in great detail but the organ they build sounded like crap. After some head scratching they decided to go recording again but this time at different positions. And with those recordings, they managed to design an electronic church organ that sounded like an actual church organ.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 03:16:05 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2023, 03:48:00 pm »
I think the where you are sitting is being either over thought, or strong evidence that more reproductive precision is required.  One on end of the argument, any seat is fine as long as you would be happy with that seat in a live performance.  On the other hand, if you want recordings from a bunch of different locations so you can make a seat selection for your next live performance the answer gets complicated.

It is an accuracy vs precision issue.

I am noting that accuracy in a concert recording is an improper thought, but precision could be attained. Audiophools witter on about accuracy, whereas you have sensibly noted that precision could be used to choose a seat. (Or conversely that the sound engineer chooses the seat for you).

Yes, I am well aware that sometimes test equipment's precision is more important than its accuracy. One company I worked at produced an attenuation meter with a 0.001dB resolution but only a 0.1dB accuracy.


There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2023, 03:59:45 pm »
While those aficionado approved seats are undoubtedly good I would be willing to bet that folks with preferences for subsections of the music, brass or woodwinds as examples, have preferences that are subsets of these, or even outside of them.

Of course, brass aficionados have their own preferences.
Once, by accident, I ended up at an outdoor opera production sitting immediately in front of the viola section, which gave me a different impression of Mozart.
One thing that may distinguish "audiophools" (a common insult hurled about in this platform) from genuine music and audio lovers is if they attend actual live concerts of acoustic music, or not.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2023, 08:51:07 am »
The concept of "degregation of fidelity" misses the elephant in the room.
Note that I used it specifically in the context of conveying information.  I do not actually believe that perfect reproduction is always the best choice.
When one needs to convey specific information, simplification and detail control is key.  This is why emergency vehicles have that undulating sound (trivially recognized, as it does not occur in nature) interspersed with shorter noise or tones (to help humans perceive the direction the sound is coming from; it is very difficult to do if the sound is continuous), and why we use diagrams instead of photographs to convey visual data series.

Consider recording an orchestra in a concert hall. Where exactly should the microphones be placed? Conductor's podium? First row of the audience? Centre, right left? Centre of the audience? With or without a complete audience?

The concept of a single place for the microphones is, of course, too simplistic. But it does highlight the point that there cannot be a single "correct" sound - it is all a choice made by the recording engineer.
Furthermore, should the recording even reproduce a specific listening point, or a physically possible listening position?

An interesting similar choice occurs in 3D rendering and stereoscopic visuals.  If you choose the view frustrum to match the typical viewing distance, the rendered image acts like a window to the rendered scene.  However, you can increase the field of view, which lets the human view more of the scene at once than they could in real life; and for stereoscopic images, increasing the interocular distance enhances the depth perception.

One of the related tricks we have all seens in horror movies is when the camera zooms in while moving away, or zooms out while moving closer in, causing a field of view and depth scaling change that humans relate to.  (Something similar happens to our perception in specific situations (danger!) due to hormonal surges, even though our eyes cannot zoom in or out per se.)

One thing that may distinguish "audiophools" (a common insult hurled about in this platform) from genuine music and audio lovers is if they attend actual live concerts of acoustic music, or not.
I use the term for those who believe their audio equipment can have needs certain je ne sais quoi that can be felt but not measured.

To me, live concerts are more of a social event – I'm not just listening to the music, but participating in it as part of the audience –; but I tend to listen to certain pieces of classical music simply because of the effect it has on my mind.  In live concerts, there is always an interaction between the performers and the audience, which is a big part.  Even with acoustic music and no vocals, the interplay between the audience and the musicians and the venue (especially large halls intended for music) is a huge part of the experience for me.  Thus, I do not believe live music vs recordings is related to audiophõlery.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2023, 09:10:43 am »
(uncontentious points snipped)

An interesting similar choice occurs in 3D rendering and stereoscopic visuals.  If you choose the view frustrum to match the typical viewing distance, the rendered image acts like a window to the rendered scene.  However, you can increase the field of view, which lets the human view more of the scene at once than they could in real life; and for stereoscopic images, increasing the interocular distance enhances the depth perception.

Having started taking stereoscopic pictures in 1984, and possessing many interesting vintage stereoscopic glass slides, I'm sensitive to the modern use of "3D" :)

There's a complementary point to interocular distance that everybody encounters when watching a stereoscopic slideshow or movie: there is a sweet spot. Obviously it is better to sit on the projection axis rather than to the right or left. Less obviously, sitting closer to or further from the screen causes the depth axis magnification to change. The cause is simply the angle subtended at the eyes by the homologous points in each image: larger angle means increased depth magnification.

No doubt some like "superstereo depth"; I don't!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2023, 04:21:56 pm »
"It don't mean a thing if it doesn't have that certain je ne sais quoi" -- Peter Schickele
I just got back from hearing Riccardo Muti conduct the Chicago Symphony Orchestra in Stravinsky's Firebird suite in front of a full audience.
The social aspects of the event were not primary.
 

Offline strawberry

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2023, 05:20:23 pm »
slewrate is bandwidth
limit for 20kHz is for 1 harmonic signal , I think
signal will be delayed when moveing up in frequency spectrum
20kHz low pass filter will subtract high harmonics from signal

20kHz vs 100kHz sound a bit cleaner
if 20kHz low pass is ~3..6db/octave then there might not be audible difference

there is reason why MP3 sounds ok on cellphone but not on stereo system
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2023, 05:47:03 pm »
Slew rate is relevant to distortion, which may increase with signal level non-linearly.
Harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion are different ways to quantitatively measure the same non-linear behavior.
3rd-order intermodulation products will not be affected by a low pass filter, since they are close to the two test-tone frequencies.
Bandwidth is a measure of a linear system.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2023, 09:05:42 pm »
slewrate is bandwidth

Slewrate is bandwidth plus amplitude.

There is a reason that bandwidths are often divided into two distinct categories: "small-signal bandwidth" and "full-scale bandwidth". The former is where slew rate limiting doesn't occur.
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2023, 09:12:06 pm »
The latter is often called “full-power” bandwidth on data sheets.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Maximum slew rate typically found in music/voice
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2023, 10:49:37 pm »
The latter is often called “full-power” bandwidth on data sheets.

Sigh. Quite right.

Brain failure on my part; shouldn't post when too tired.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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