Author Topic: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR  (Read 2591 times)

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Offline José.jmaacc

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2020, 07:05:07 am »
fake medical grade gloves, masks and hand sanitizer. Fake anti viral medication, and other drugs.
Now imagine free access to firmware that allows  perfect UI clones
imo ,  this time its best to cross thingers james_s.

 There would be no need if only  theory of operation, functional validation and control were published, after all engineers will most likely have to use different hardware, parts in these plans can not be purchased ,  however they can be cloned!
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2020, 10:17:13 am »
aren't you guys slightly worried that the sharing of all this information might create clones that don't work properly and can NOT be identified as clones? It can result in both genuine and clones to be ALL removed from medical centers.

No.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2020, 05:14:41 pm »
Don't worry too much, as the chances of a cloned device (or any non-approved device) making it to intensive care units of hospitals are close to zero anyway.

Looks like many have no clue how purchases of medical devices are handled in hospitals these days. Be thankful for that too.
Also looks like many have no clue what certification of medical devices entails. The design itself is only a small part of it. The whole organization of the manufacturer matters too, and production is a BIG part of it, so even if you had the exact design of an approved medical device, you wouldn't be able to manufacture it while keeping the certification unless you have proven your company can, which is a lengthy process. Be also thankful for this as getting it wrong is extremely easy.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 05:18:02 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2020, 07:45:34 pm »
I think we'll see a lot of rules and regulations being short-circuited as the crisis unfolds and I'm perfectly ok with that. If we end up with tens of thousands of people dying while the gears of bureaucracy slowly turn and workable lifesaving machines sit waiting that is going to create an entirely new issue. I don't give a damn about regulations right now, we don't have the luxury of worrying about that, during a situation like we have unfolding the normal rules no longer apply, people are getting creative out of necessity.

Already we have hospitals buying supplies on ebay, taking donations from companies and private individuals, doctors coming up with "MacGyver" solutions to connect multiple patients to ventilators designed for one person. PPEs are being manufactured already by all sorts of companies and individuals as hospitals have been doing things that would *never* fly during normal times like washing and reusing disposable items. This morning I read some unrelated company was repairing broken ventilators for hospitals in I think it was California. Having repaired a lot of veterinary medical equipment (which in many cases is identical to human equipment sans the red tape) it has occurred to me that I could do something like that if I found myself needing employment. 
 
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Offline rgarito

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 08:02:20 pm »
At least reading the source code doesn't make me feel so bad about some of my messy code.  This is medical device software with comments mixed in French and English, global variables everywhere (with no management over who reads or writes what), mixed tab and space use, spelling errors and undocumented constants.

But I agree it's pretty cool that they've now released the source, I'd say you pretty much have everything you need. Sourcing that old ST processor will probably be the hardest part.

if you saw the "professional" code I work on daily for one of the large well known IT firms, you'd laugh.  It's an absolute NIGHTMARE.  Yet it runs about half the planet...
 
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Offline rgarito

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2020, 08:06:39 pm »
I think we'll see a lot of rules and regulations being short-circuited as the crisis unfolds and I'm perfectly ok with that. If we end up with tens of thousands of people dying while the gears of bureaucracy slowly turn and workable lifesaving machines sit waiting that is going to create an entirely new issue. I don't give a damn about regulations right now, we don't have the luxury of worrying about that, during a situation like we have unfolding the normal rules no longer apply, people are getting creative out of necessity.

Already we have hospitals buying supplies on ebay, taking donations from companies and private individuals, doctors coming up with "MacGyver" solutions to connect multiple patients to ventilators designed for one person. PPEs are being manufactured already by all sorts of companies and individuals as hospitals have been doing things that would *never* fly during normal times like washing and reusing disposable items. This morning I read some unrelated company was repairing broken ventilators for hospitals in I think it was California. Having repaired a lot of veterinary medical equipment (which in many cases is identical to human equipment sans the red tape) it has occurred to me that I could do something like that if I found myself needing employment.
Keep in mind, too, that the permissive license for this thing requires ( :-DD ) that each device made from this be labeled:
COVID-19 Warning: This Ventilator was created for use only in response to the COVID-
19 pandemic. It is provided AS IS.

 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2020, 10:07:54 pm »
Yeah, just another heap of corona bullshit.

If it ever gets that far with me, I'd rather take some barbiturates and die than be sedated and connected to some botched together ventilator systems.
First scenario, I die painlessly and quick, second scenario, I probably die as well, just much more slowly and painfully. And if the guy which sedates me fucks up, I wake up as as an oxygen deprived retard, how fun is that.
Same happens, if the homebuild ventilator craps out.

The only thing I would trust is with with old school iron lungs.
Requires nothing but some old barrels, some valves, very basic electronics and couple of radial compressors from like old vacuum cleaners.

 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2020, 10:13:01 pm »
aren't you guys slightly worried that the sharing of all this information might create clones that don't work properly and can NOT be identified as clones? It can result in both genuine and clones to be ALL removed from medical centers.
They're accurate enough to be indistinguishable but not accurate enough to work? Sounds unlikely. Besides, there are always going to be differences. Two injection moulds from the same drawing are doing to be different when made by different mould makers.
 
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Offline José.jmaacc

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2020, 10:17:20 pm »
Don't worry too much, as the chances of a cloned device (or any non-approved device) making it to intensive care units of hospitals are close to zero anyway. (...)

about my knowledge of medical devices, right now you are correct, however there are still 2 or 3 phases left of this event, and are we presently at phase 5?? are we sure? How long will it last? When will we have the first 45days(22*2+1) delimited region without new cases? Will it be June 2021(two thousand and twenty one)?
The rules that exist now protect health systems but will they exist by then ?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 10:19:33 pm by José.jmaacc »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2020, 03:23:08 pm »
The rules that exist now protect health systems but will they exist by then ?

You don't want to know.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2020, 06:52:29 pm »
Yeah, just another heap of corona bullshit.

If it ever gets that far with me, I'd rather take some barbiturates and die than be sedated and connected to some botched together ventilator systems.
First scenario, I die painlessly and quick, second scenario, I probably die as well, just much more slowly and painfully. And if the guy which sedates me fucks up, I wake up as as an oxygen deprived retard, how fun is that.
Same happens, if the homebuild ventilator craps out.

The only thing I would trust is with with old school iron lungs.
Requires nothing but some old barrels, some valves, very basic electronics and couple of radial compressors from like old vacuum cleaners.

In that case please do make sure others are aware of your wishes so that you don't tie up equipment and efforts that could be used to give someone else several more years/decades of life. Of those who end up on ventilators it sounds like a majority of them do recover after a few weeks, it's not something where they end up tethered to a machine for the rest of their life.
 
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Offline TheNewLab

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2020, 11:15:45 pm »
Just watched Dave's 2 eevBlab #72 & #73
quick duck,duck here's link for alternate access of Medtronics device

https://www.3dprintingmedia.network/forums/topic/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-release-1-0/

fmedtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-1.zip
medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-2.zip
medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip  (either edit one of the other URLS "set-3")
 or copy
https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/medtronic-pb560-ventilator-system-file-set-3.zip
All software and code appears to be in set-3
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2020, 02:33:29 pm »
Interesting video on why most of the low-cost ventilator projects are a waste of time :
https://youtu.be/7vLPefHYWpY
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2020, 06:25:08 pm »
There's an identical thread on eevBlab as noted above.

Medtronics has a problem:  Their customers want more devices than they can make but if they spend money on capital investment, the plants will be overcapacity when this debacle is over.  Worse yet, hospitals will be flooded with ventilators and the market won't recover for years.  Medtronics could possibly run additional shifts (if possible) but expanding capacity through capital investment is a money losing proposition.

So, to prevent backlash when they refuse to increase capacity, they pick a design that they probably don't care much about and open it up to the world.  "Here, build your own" and "leave us alone".

Furthermore, it's not clear that Medtonics' suppliers can deliver the components at an accelerated rate.  If they can't, it's Medtronics fault for not making more units.  Nobody is interested in excuses.  So, give away a design and let the other builders worry about the supply chain.

Releasing the design was a good move.  It takes the heat off Medtronics and makes them look like a responsible corporate citizen.  "Hey, we gave away a perfectly good design, some company just needs to step up and start building!".
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2020, 11:05:31 pm »
some schematics for a unknown type no-name breathing machine
go back to the first invention of the  medical device type respirator or breathing machine or iron lung,
and work forward until you get to todays design behind the curtain of property law.
this is were you need to step back and re-design to the best of the knowledge you have.
an all new design of medical device type respirator or breathing machine that is in no way
triggers a patent bomb or is as legally free of ........
 if you was stuck on a desert island and your life depended on having a medical device type respirator
and lets say you had all the resource to build it. reliability and safety are important.
but its
sinusitis
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2020, 11:50:05 pm »
Releasing the design was a good move.  It takes the heat off Medtronics and makes them look like a responsible corporate citizen.  "Hey, we gave away a perfectly good design, some company just needs to step up and start building!".
As far as i understood it there went some serious tax money to develop these ventilators years ago because the next respiratory illness that makes it into a pandemic was kind of foreseeable.

I mean no one keeps a manufacturer from hiring more people to build more of them, it is not rocket science to assemble one. So either they do not have the parts or some other bottleneck that someone that tries to make a clone will also face. But it is unfeasible to do so  in three-six weeks time.

Quote
Worse yet, hospitals will be flooded with ventilators and the market won't recover for years.  Medtronics could possibly run additional shifts (if possible) but expanding capacity through capital investment is a money losing proposition.
I am not sure if manufacturers of medical devices can allow to go such a route, their customers are hospitals after all and this type of machine goes only with intensive care, so the usual amount of devices they sell is coupled to the amount of intensive care units that are in the country. Might as well just have been produced on order with long lead times, they are just not prepared for this - no one is.

It is not their only product as well.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 12:02:53 am »
Worse yet, hospitals will be flooded with ventilators and the market won't recover for years.
On the bright side, we can maybe look forward to some interesting teardown videos in the future... of ones that have hopefully been thoroughly sterilised, of course.
 

Online donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 12:37:56 pm »
Also note that the cpu is probably long obsolete. if i recall the ST10 family was discontinued in 2008 ...

Well, that would explain why they released this particular product design. They probably have a dwindling stock of CPUs and plan to stop production soon anyway.

Edit: Actually it appears the CPU used is still available but NRND, https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/ST10F276Z5T3?qs=SoAZXCQuyY%252BYJOKV3TS93A%3D%3D. Quite expensive, and seems to have some unusual features.

Edit2: pretty daft releasing Open Source, but having to register to get it! Anyway, Seth Hilbrand, of KiCad Services, has set up https://gitlab.com/openventilator. Plan is to reimplement designs in KiCad.

Edit3: to be fair, Medtronic are not calling it Open Source, merely "open". The "permissive" license reads:

Quote
Modified Permissive License
Limited Term.  This permissive license is effective from the time you download the Design Materials and Software until the earlier of (i) the final day the WHO’s PHEIC is in effect or (ii) October 1, 2024 (the “Term”).

They clearly have no f*** clue what permissive means, regardless of anything else! Completely pointless doing anything with this platform, with such a highly restricted license. So yeah, I'm calling bullshit on this too.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:59:37 pm by donotdespisethesnake »
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2020, 08:16:38 pm »
Has anyone scrubbed the bom of this thing ?  3/4 of the world is busy converting the files to whatever platform-du-your , lambasting medtronics for the license or other dilly-dallying.

The supply chain is the most critical thing for these machines. And i'm not just talking electronics.  Valves ? The display ? the membrane keypad ?  There are some really tough to get parts in this kind of machine.
All the 'conversion effort' is a waste if you can't get the parts to build it !
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 
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Offline Kilo Tango

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2020, 10:40:18 pm »
Perhaps instead of trying to trace down supplies of obsolete components and ending up with desoldered junk from you know where, as had been said else where, we should use the Medtronics information as a learning pack to tell us what is needed and redesign the control system from scratch.

Its not difficult, provided the code is robustly written in say C, then you use a different processor, write a few drivers, assemble the lot and that's it, it will work the same if not better than the original.

I was involved in redesigning part of the control system for a Pharma machine. It used a plug in AIM card with a 386 processor and obsolescence was a pain. I basically put down an LPC1768, and connected everything up. Chips like that make things very easy, its all I/O lines and serial interfaces, plus the speed of 100MHz means it will process faster than older stuff. The software engineer wrote drivers to replace the originals and that was it, it still ran the original code, and was better cheaper, faster and more reliable.

As far as a membrane sealed keyboard, would this do ?. 

 https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mcak304nwwb/keypad-3x4-array-plastic/dp/1182235 

It doesn't need to have the exact key layout, just needs a method of signalling the system to do a certain function.

Don't create problems when there is a simpler answer,

Ken
 

Online donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2020, 06:19:35 pm »
I wouldn't worry about it, there is almost zero chance any of the 100 or so open ventilator projects will get as far as practical use.

I guess there are lots of bored people looking for something to do though.
Bob
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Offline adx

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Re: Medtronics' "open source ventilator" bullshit PR
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2020, 10:43:04 pm »
I see no problems with Medtronics' files or motives. Looks fine to me. It's still intriguing to see documents for things like a hose cutter fixture - like getting a job at the place, except you can build it yourself if you want! They say they hope the design inspires innovation during this time, etc, so there's very little they can do to stop others using the design ideas, I'd guess the license is "best effort" to protect their domain when someone produces an identical copy. Releasing it is obviously a good idea to protect their market in a world which might be flooded with high-volume ventilator production pretty soon, and is also a Good Thing To Do.

The first pack has more than enough to guide a newbie manufacturer into production of ventilators, warts and all if they want. I was considering entering the schematic, didn't take enough notice of the promise to release all material, later I downloaded that, and there are the gerbers, solidworks files. This provides an enormous headstart on regulatory approvals, and above all guides a developer away from all the traps in setting one of these products up in short order (I've done it, but the detail is neverending). I'm confident I could make and sell a few (far too few to be any use). The turbine manufacturer is run off their feet - I was thinking a vacuum cleaner motor compatible with the drive board (a standard chip but not sensorless). But it's really an invitation to experiment a bit, with an assumption of competence.
 
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