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Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.
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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2021, 11:29:39 pm ---
OK, no belts or treadmills. They are excluded.

--- End quote ---

I must be very bad at explaining myself. The two treadmills are the only thing interacting with vehicle. So they need to power the vehicle not some external source if you do not want to accept that there is a energy storage device then you need to explain how it will move from left to right using just the two treadmills.



--- Quote from: IanB on December 21, 2021, 11:29:39 pm ---
--- Quote ---You need to be able to demonstrate that using the energy from road treadmill (generator wheel) and applying that to Motor wheel you are able to advance forward (meaning accelerate from left to right).
--- End quote ---
It seems that won't be possible, as the treadmills are excluded. If the road treadmill is excluded it cannot supply energy.


--- Quote ---You will not be able to do that without adding energy storage.
--- End quote ---
Energy storage from where? The treadmills are excluded, so they cannot supply any energy to store. There is no other source of energy in the system.


--- Quote ---I do not think I can continue to argue here as your level of understanding is way below what is required. Not sure if this is a failing of the education system or a limitation of most humans brain (or maybe a combination of both).
Even if I setup an experiment and show conclusively that my theory is correct all you will do is defend the new theory without understanding what you are defending.
--- End quote ---
It's certainly true that your brain is different from most humans. You are exceptional. Congratulations!

--- End quote ---

In any case do not waste your time as you will also waste mine and you have no clue of how this works and you are not even anywhere close.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Brumby on December 22, 2021, 12:29:07 am ---
Now this statement is where (as I see it) you have made your error.

When acceleration drops to zero, it does not mean the Blackbird slows down.  It means the Blackbird's velocity does not change.  As long as the wind blows the same, it will continue at that same speed.

As long as the Blackbird is moving, it is continually producing (not storing) this "pressure differential" as you call it and the "apparent wind speed" will be greater than the actual wind speed.

How this translates into the Blackbird's final velocity is very dependent on the proportions you mentioned.  These proportions and the mechanisms that determine them need to be properly worked out.

--- End quote ---

Not understanding that pressure differential is energy storage will make you come to wrong conclusions like the fact that vehicle can always accelerate (as Derek and Rick claim at ever higher rate) or that it can maintain higher than wind speed indefinitely (not even close).
After vehicle is above wind speed wind can not offer anything to the vehicle so vehicle is on his own and need to use earlier stored energy that will eventually be all used up.
Should be relatively easy to test if that is the only way you can be convinced. I fully understand how it works but answering the question exactly how many minutes it will take to start to slow down is not possible as wind speed is not constant in real world and in case of blackbird pilot has access to propeller pitch control same as if you where allowed to change the gear ratio.
IanB:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 22, 2021, 03:35:12 am ---I must be very bad at explaining myself. The two treadmills are the only thing interacting with vehicle. So they need to power the vehicle not some external source if you do not want to accept that there is a energy storage device then you need to explain how it will move from left to right using just the two treadmills.
--- End quote ---

That's exactly what I did.

If you do not like the result, you need to tell me which step in the logic contains a mistake.
IanB:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 21, 2021, 08:19:32 pm ---I appreciate the effort you put in to this but no vehicle without energy storage can move in this example from left to right.
--- End quote ---
When you make this statement, you are starting with a conclusion, "No vehicle can...", and working backwards to a justification. But that is not how reasoning works. You need to start with some definitions and a statement of the problem, and work forward from there using logical reasoning to reach a conclusion.


--- Quote ---You just looked at speed here no forces ? How will that even make sense for this particular problem ?
I wish I knew how to help you from here but you are just way off thus I'm sorry but I cant help.

--- End quote ---
There are no forces because this is a steady state analysis of an ideal system with no friction. There are no forces, and there is no power involved. This is a pure problem in mechanics.

If we introduce friction, then there will be some forces, and there will be some power input to the system from the belts, but there still will be no storage of energy because the conditions are steady, with nothing changing over time.
Brumby:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 22, 2021, 03:43:20 am ---After vehicle is above wind speed wind can not offer anything to the vehicle so vehicle is on his own

--- End quote ---
At wind speed, the wind itself is not directly driving the vehicle.  It's like a wall of air that never makes contact with the vehicle - that part is true.  However, we still have a rotating propeller which is producing thrust.  It is this thrust which is pushing against that wall of air, giving the "apparent wind speed" phenomenon YOU mentioned.
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