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Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.
Kleinstein:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 27, 2021, 08:13:05 pm ---....
My earlier example is perfectly correct and for a bicycle to move at 1km/h against a 230km/h head wind it will require a minimum of 66kW and gears can not help with anything as a cyclist may be able to provide 300W for minutes and maybe peak around 1kW it will never be able to provide 66kW and so never be able to move against a 230km/h head wind let a lone the possibility that 300W is enough to do that as the wrong formula and that calculator will imply.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 28, 2021, 12:03:56 am ---
--- Quote from: Kleinstein on December 27, 2021, 11:55:27 pm ---You claimed the power would be the power needed to drive against the wind - I (and most others here) were in doubt of that. That is your theory that gives the wrong result ! I just enteres a very small speed and used the very basic force = power / speed formula for a mechanical movement.
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It is not my claim as in I did not discovered anything new.
Just imagine this.
You are stationary anchored to the ground. You can chose to "lift the anchor" and your vehicle will be accelerated direct down wind or down stream (boat on a river). This power to accelerate is provided to you by the wind or stream of water but if you decide to drive swim upstream then you need way more power as you are going against the stream.
So while your vehicle in the wind is stationary or boat on a river is stationary relative to ground you are likely anchored.
Have you ever had the chance to swim in a river ? What amount of power do you need to swim upstream compared to down stream ?
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Swiming in the rive is something for a red herring: it removes the 2nd moving plane and thus the whole point.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: IanB on December 28, 2021, 12:23:38 am ---Your reply is a red herring. Swimming in a river has nothing to do with my question.
Let me ask you again: what would you say if someone showed you a demonstration of a vehicle moving directly against the wind, powered by the wind, with no energy storage?
It's a very simple question. It doesn't involve rivers, or swimming, or any bullshit like that.
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My question is super relevant but you likely do not understand what air is.
And as already answer no vehicle powered only by wind can go directly upwind without energy storage.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: Kleinstein on December 28, 2021, 12:24:57 am ---Swiming in the rive is something for a red herring: it removes the 2nd moving plane and thus the whole point.
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Ground is still stationary the swimmer is the vehicle and water is air. I do not see anything removed.
IanB:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 28, 2021, 12:26:14 am ---
--- Quote from: IanB on December 28, 2021, 12:23:38 am ---Your reply is a red herring. Swimming in a river has nothing to do with my question.
Let me ask you again: what would you say if someone showed you a demonstration of a vehicle moving directly against the wind, powered by the wind, with no energy storage?
It's a very simple question. It doesn't involve rivers, or swimming, or any bullshit like that.
--- End quote ---
My question is super relevant but you likely do not understand what air is.
And as already answer no vehicle powered only by wind can go directly upwind without energy storage.
--- End quote ---
That's still the wrong answer.
If you cannot answer a simple question like this one, which almost anyone else on the planet would know how to answer, then continuing the debate in this thread is rather pointless, wouldn't you agree?
PlainName:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on December 28, 2021, 12:26:14 am ---
--- Quote from: IanB on December 28, 2021, 12:23:38 am ---Your reply is a red herring. Swimming in a river has nothing to do with my question.
Let me ask you again: what would you say if someone showed you a demonstration of a vehicle moving directly against the wind, powered by the wind, with no energy storage?
It's a very simple question. It doesn't involve rivers, or swimming, or any bullshit like that.
--- End quote ---
My question is super relevant but you likely do not understand what air is.
And as already answer no vehicle powered only by wind can go directly upwind without energy storage.
--- End quote ---
Can't believe this. Are you afraid that he'll actually produce the goods and show you? Why else wouldn't you jump at this and say "Alright, show me then"?
Gosh, he hasn't even asked you to renounce your stated opinion on stuff, just asking what you'd say. Of course, after 1000 posts we know jolly well that if he did manage to demonstrate this you would still deny it in some way, probably by some distraction technique like changing the subject or introducing a strawman or similar :(
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