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Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.

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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Brumby on August 31, 2021, 11:56:26 am ---

--- Quote --- as no air particle can get to a vehicle that travels at or above wind speed in same direction so is clear wind can not power this.
--- End quote ---
It's not just wind.  It's wind plus something else.

--- End quote ---

There is no wind energy that vehicle can use when vehicle is above wind speed in same exact direction. And what else is there ? The vehicle is supposed to be powered only by wind.  There is of course energy storage but you can not admit to that.



--- Quote from: Brumby on August 31, 2021, 11:56:26 am ---
--- Quote --- but that is disprove by my simple wheels only diagram
--- End quote ---
Utter rubbish.  Your "wheels only diagram" is not relevant - never has been - but as you continue to insist it is, you are condemned to never understand correctly.

--- End quote ---

Please point out where my wheel only diagram deviates from the propeller cart shown on treadmill.
The propeller pushes against air at zero speed while the vehicle in my diagram pushes against a zero speed solid (red box).
There is absolutely no difference and they are perfectly equivalent but you do not like to think they are equivalent as you will have a harder time explaining how the vehicle in my diagram is incapable to move from left to right without the energy storage (spiral spring).
I can take out the spring to show vehicle can not work without it but I can not take the compress-ability of the air unless I replace air with water (much harder to setup such an experiment).

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 04:31:21 pm ---So your mistake is that you decided the entire vehicle moved in to air same as the entire vehicle will have moved on to that other lane.

--- End quote ---

And your mistake, among many many others, is that you don't see that this distinction doesn't matter.  The vehicle is simultaneously rolling on the road and 'in the air'.  You made a similar error when you claim that the surface of a treadmill is somehow different than the surface of a moving piece of paper.  It's ridiculous and I don't think there's much point in discussing it further when your intuition misguides you so badly and you refuse to actually use math in a meaningful way.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: Kleinstein on August 31, 2021, 10:00:38 am ---
This is not true, as going at 100% the wind speed with a sail is not 100% efficient, as least not as energy efficency. You actually use no wind-engy at all. So at best you could call it a zero divide by zero to get 100%, but math does not approve this.

--- End quote ---

Say you have a vehicle with a sail raveling on ground and the wheels have zero friction. Will eventually the vehicle travel at same speed as the wind ? If not why ?
Is there any way to get more energy from the wind when vehicle and air molecules travels at the exact same speed ? If yes then how.

Yes at wind speed the sail vehicle will not accelerate at all since it is already traveling at constant speed and has the same speed relative to ground as the air molecules (wind) thus 100% of the available wind energy is used and thus 100% efficient wind power vehicle.
A real vehicle will never get to same speed as the wind so it will be less than 100% efficient.
This also includes a propeller based vehicle that is also way below 100% efficient. The only propriety of the propeller air combination that allows vehicle to exceed wind speed for a limited amount of time is energy storage.

electrodacus:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 31, 2021, 04:46:09 pm ---And your mistake, among many many others, is that you don't see that this distinction doesn't matter.  The vehicle is simultaneously rolling on the road and 'in the air'.  You made a similar error when you claim that the surface of a treadmill is somehow different than the surface of a moving piece of paper.  It's ridiculous and I don't think there's much point in discussing it further when your intuition misguides you so badly and you refuse to actually use math in a meaningful way.

--- End quote ---

The vehicle is rolling on the ground that is a fact and at no point the blackbird or the treadmill prototype even left the ground.  Please read my entire reply where I give the example with the parallel lane. Think what is till mean for vehicle to move to that other lane (that will be equivalent with vehicle moving in air only no longer rolling on the ground).

Yes please test a treadmill to see the difference from moving piece of paper.  The difference is huge you just can not see that without doing the experiment.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 04:59:33 pm ---Yes please test a treadmill to see the difference from moving piece of paper.  The difference is huge you just can not see that without doing the experiment.

--- End quote ---

What is your theory or explanation as to why they are different?

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