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Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.
Alex Eisenhut:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 07:07:41 pm ---
I'm sorry I do not have the ability to properly explain this but that dragged paper will not have the same effect on vehicle as a treadmill.
--- End quote ---
How does the wheel know the difference in your diagram that clearly shows the arrow on the belt? How is it different if it's just the paper that moves and the person pulling the paper is the "mill"?
Seems like a simple question. I don't care if you don't have the ability to "properly" explain it, just try improperly explaining.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: Alex Eisenhut on August 31, 2021, 07:29:22 pm ---How does the wheel know the difference in your diagram that clearly shows the arrow on the belt? How is it different if it's just the paper that moves and the person pulling the paper is the "mill"?
Seems like a simple question. I don't care if you don't have the ability to "properly" explain it, just try improperly explaining.
--- End quote ---
I just did improperly explained it.
The treadmill can push the vehicle back the paper moves under the vehicle so just rolls under.
For the treadmill version in order for vehicle to advance from left to right the G wheel will need to spin clockwise faster than the treadmill belt but that is impossible since the G wheel is not powered by anything other than the treadmill belt and in order to get power from the G wheel you will need to break the G wheel so vehicle will be moved backwards more than M wheel can push back.
So if the wheel slips on the treadmill so it still rotates clockwise but slower than treadmill the vehicle will be moved by the treadmill from right to left
On the paper version if the G wheel slips but still rotates a bit clockwise the vehicle advances forward when you look at the entire vehicle relative to the table but that will not happen for the vehicle on the treadmill as the treadmill pushes the entire vehicle back relative to table/ground.
I will want you to try and explain this to others once you will see the result of the experiment.
Another alternative explanation (not sure if is any better for you) is to imagine the treadmill as a wheel with axis fixed to the ground and under the vehicle G wheel so same as a treadmill but a circle instead of an ellipse.
Now imagine this wheel turns anticlockwise and maybe you can imagine that vehicle has no chance of moving forward powered only by this as vehicle will be pushed back since any power you try to take from that G front wheel even if all transferred to M wheel it will barely be able to stay in the same place.
Now imagine the same wheel but instead or rotating anticlockwise it is locked no rotation at all and no longer fixed to ground but is just pushed back (right to left).
Was this wheel instead of treadmill more helpful ?
bdunham7:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 08:02:38 pm ---Was this wheel instead of treadmill more helpful ?
--- End quote ---
Not really. Please address my 5-step question. You don't have explain why, just at what stage in those 5 steps it goes from working as we say it does to working the way you say.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 31, 2021, 08:21:25 pm ---
--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 08:02:38 pm ---Was this wheel instead of treadmill more helpful ?
--- End quote ---
Not really. Please address my 5-step question. You don't have explain why, just at what stage in those 5 steps it goes from working as we say it does to working the way you say.
--- End quote ---
It will start working from step 2
Kleinstein:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on August 31, 2021, 08:02:38 pm ---For the treadmill version in order for vehicle to advance from left to right the G wheel will need to spin clockwise faster than the treadmill belt but that is impossible since the G wheel is not powered by anything other than the treadmill belt and in order to get power from the G wheel you will need to break the G wheel so vehicle will be moved backwards more than M wheel can push back.
--- End quote ---
The red parts are wrong, get the 2 points right, and you should be allright.
1) When the vehicle moves left to right, the wheel will spin faster (unless it slips). One does not have to power the wheel, it is enough to move the vehicle. After all this is the G wheel and not the motor. So the generator does not have to move the vehicle, it just follows where the motor says is should go.
2) the M wheel can move the vehicle to the right, if it can provide enough force to do so. The force needed is the breaking force of the motor. This force not power power that needs to be overcome. The lower the speed of the vehicle relative to the fixed frame, the more force the motor can provide from a given power.
The final point is, that for the case that the motor drives to the right and the generator brakes, the power available to the generator is higher than the power needed by the motor. If you don't believe: take the simple example of the motor in stop (no power needed) and the generator is still driven by the treadmill speed. So there is plenty of power to spare and slowly move to the right.
Do the math and you see that it even works at higher speed if the efficiency is good (e.g. > 50%).
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