Author Topic: Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.  (Read 108251 times)

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Offline electrodacus

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Totally correct   It would help others if maybe some could do a 3D model   :-+ :popcorn:

The 3D component is irrelevant in this discussion as all I wanted to show was that energy can be stored in pressure differential created by the propeller and this pressure differential energy storage is what allows vehicle to exceed wind speed for a limited amount of time.
As vehicle exceeds wind speed this pressure differential will decrease as energy is used to accelerate the vehicle and when this pressure differential is smaller than what vehicle needs to cover the losses the vehicle will start to slow down.

Offline electrodacus

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Imaging a small zeppelin (an airship) with the same propeller as it is in the Blackbird configuration. The zeppelin will fly, say, 5m high above the ground.
Will the zeppelin fly faster then the tail wind speed?

What powers the propeller on your zeppelin ?
For this zeppelin to be equivalent you will need to have a wheel ruining on the ground connected trough a cord that may be also the electric cable and then energy generated from that will power the propeller. In this case that is the same as blackbird the zeppelin can not exceed wind speed other than for a few moments based on pressure differential energy storage. The drag from the generator wheel will be higher than the trust you can get from the propeller powered only the the power coming from the wheel on the ground. 

Offline electrodacus

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a treadmill that is not moving relative to the ground
- is a flat surface moving from right to left under the front wheels of the cart, relative to a stationary surface on which the back wheels rest.
a powered off treadmill moved relative to the ground     
- is a flat surface moving from right to left under the front wheels of the cart, relative to a stationary surface on which the back wheels rest.

This is really simple. If you think there is something wrong with one of these two statements, change some of the green words to make it correct.

Yes it is fairly simple but you are the one that is not seeing the difference.
Imagine two wheels and on top of them there is a piece of heavy lumber.
Both wheels are anchored to ground and you rotate one of the wheels. What will happen is that lumber will move relative to the ground.
Now disconnect one of the wheels from the ground (the wheel is free to move) and you put the effort in pushing (sliding that wheel) relative to the ground.
The lumber will stay where it is relative to the ground and only your wheel moved.
This is the reason you think the vehicle in my diagram can move from left to right powered only by the treadmill. You need to do the experiment to see that will never be the case. That vehicle when you use a treadmill will move from right to left only no matter how you setup the gear ratio.

Offline iMo

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..What powers the propeller on your zeppelin ?
With the zeppelin case I've been trying to disconnect the "propeller" and "wheels" concepts here.
I can also ask you the same: "What powers the propeller on you Blackbird?"


« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 08:18:09 pm by imo »
 

Offline electrodacus

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..What powers the propeller on your zeppelin ?
With the zeppelin case I've been trying to disconnect the "propeller" and "wheels" concepts here.
I can also ask you the same: "What powers the propeller on you Blackbird?"

Above wind speed the propeller is powered by energy stored in pressure differential. Once that energy is used up vehicle will slow down below wind speed.

Online Kleinstein

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Imaging a small zeppelin (an airship) with the same propeller as it is in the Blackbird configuration. The zeppelin will fly, say, 5m high above the ground.
Will the zeppelin fly faster then the tail wind speed?

What powers the propeller on your zeppelin ?
For this zeppelin to be equivalent you will need to have a wheel ruining on the ground connected trough a cord that may be also the electric cable and then energy generated from that will power the propeller. In this case that is the same as blackbird the zeppelin can not exceed wind speed other than for a few moments based on pressure differential energy storage. The drag from the generator wheel will be higher than the trust you can get from the propeller powered only the the power coming from the wheel on the ground.

The idea with the zeplin and towed genrator is good.  One just has to be carefull in how to calculate the power:
Ignoring friction the towed gerator can gerate a power of tow-force times velocity relative to ground.
The prop on the zeplin needs some power to generate a given forward thrust. This power is independen of the wind speed, as the zeplin does not see the ground, except for the cable to transfer the thrust to the ground vehicle.

It depends on the speed of the wind, how much drag is needed to create a given power. Ignoring friction the drag is power divided by speed relative to ground.  Given enough speed (wind plus the little movement of the zeplin) the drag can be smaller than the thrust of the zeplin.
 

Offline bdunham7

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I think your confusion comes from the shape of the treadmill...

There is a very big difference between the two cases and key in understanding what will happen in my diagram and why vehicle will not be able to move from left to right if you use a treadmill.

The one that is confused here is you.  None of us actually have any doubt about the fact that the Blackbird works as advertised, even though some of us (me, for example) had the same initial reaction that once the vehicle was at wind speed, there doesn't appear to be a source of power.  A little thinking, read my reply#20 or any number of others, and we all now know how it works more or less.  And none of us have any doubt about the outcome of your treadmill example.  Your insistence that it 'must' work is a bit like insisting that the moon is made of cheese--with no proof or theory--and responding to all arguments with "just go take a bite--you'll see!" 

All of my questions of you have been directed at finding out where your misconceptions lie so that I might reason you out of them.  Unfortunately I think that the answer is that you have a very basic lack of understanding about knowledge itself when it comes to the physical sciences--the concept of manifestation, to start.  Physical phenomena involve interactions that manifest themselves (which simply means they appear) in a sensible (which means detectable, capable of being sensed) way.  We use different terms and concepts to describe and define these interactions--guage bosons for quantum physics, electric and magnetic fields for optical and electronic systems, etc. 

For basic mechanical systems, the interactions are defined and described by simple force.  Other concepts arise, such as LaGrangians and Hamiltonians, conservation of momentum, conservation of energy, etc which can be applied where appropriate to solve problems where force concepts become difficult to understand directly--but they all are derived from the original simple laws of force and motion.  Simple mechanical systems (and these are all simple mechanical systems) can only sense force.  If something changes the state of an object, it has to involve a force.  The force that something may apply to another system or object is dependent on its sensible characteristics--sensible in this case meaning those characteristics that will make a difference in its interaction with the other, or IOW can be sensed by it. 

In the case of your diagram, the only relevant characteristics of the paper are the physical characteristics of the paper itself and the rate at which it is moving.  If you think there is some other sensible characteristic--one that an observer could see by only looking at the moving surface inside the frame as I proposed--please tell us what that might be.  Otherwise you have the same paper, moving at the same rate--and there is no reason that the car would behave differently from one to another nor any way that an observer would be able to notice the difference.  There is no sensible force or phenomenon that would cause the interaction between the car and the paper to be different in either case and there's no magical subspace phenomenon that will intercede because you think another law has been violated elsewhere.

Stop imagining that your brain can magically intuit the intricacies of physics.  It is totally counterproductive and will greatly impede the learning process.  Intuition is a layer on top of learning that can allow you to leap ahead of actual calculations a bit, but if it only lies upon minimal knowledge, or worse, misconceptions, than it will lead you pretty far astray.  I have no idea how you convinced yourself into this mess of misunderstanding, but your refusal to reexamine your so-called conclusions or your reasoning process is not an indicia of intelligence, but rather of exceptional hard-headedness.  And coming from me, well that's like Chris Farley calling you fat.
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Offline iMo

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Imaging a small zeppelin (an airship) with the same propeller as it is in the Blackbird configuration. The zeppelin will fly, say, 5m high above the ground.
Will the zeppelin fly faster then the tail wind speed?

What powers the propeller on your zeppelin ?
For this zeppelin to be equivalent you will need to have a wheel ruining on the ground connected trough a cord that may be also the electric cable and then energy generated from that will power the propeller. In this case that is the same as blackbird the zeppelin can not exceed wind speed other than for a few moments based on pressure differential energy storage. The drag from the generator wheel will be higher than the trust you can get from the propeller powered only the the power coming from the wheel on the ground.

The idea with the zeplin and towed genrator is good.  One just has to be carefull in how to calculate the power:
Ignoring friction the towed gerator can gerate a power of tow-force times velocity relative to ground.
The prop on the zeplin needs some power to generate a given forward thrust. This power is independen of the wind speed, as the zeplin does not see the ground, except for the cable to transfer the thrust to the ground vehicle.

It depends on the speed of the wind, how much drag is needed to create a given power. Ignoring friction the drag is power divided by speed relative to ground.  Given enough speed (wind plus the little movement of the zeplin) the drag can be smaller than the thrust of the zeplin.
Nope - forget the vehicle, no vehicle here, no cables, no wheels
Only a zeppelin with the propeller mounted on the zeppelin the same way as it was on the Blackbird..
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 08:52:37 pm by imo »
 

Offline IanB

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Yes it is fairly simple but you are the one that is not seeing the difference.

Once again, don't start deflecting by introducing different examples.

If you think some of the green words are wrong, change some of the green words.
 

Offline electrodacus

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Nope - forget the vehicle, no vehicle here, no cables, no wheels
Only a zeppelin with the propeller mounted on the zeppelin the same way as it was on the Blackbird..

What will be the role of the propeller on a zeppelin if the propeller is not powered ?
Zeppelin will not be able to go faster than the wind speed.

Offline IanB

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The one that is confused here is you.

We have someone here who deflects every question with a side track, ignoring what was asked and changing the subject. Someone who agrees with nothing, ever, and always insists that everything presented is wrong.

What do we say about such behavior?
 

Offline iMo

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Nope - forget the vehicle, no vehicle here, no cables, no wheels
Only a zeppelin with the propeller mounted on the zeppelin the same way as it was on the Blackbird..

What will be the role of the propeller on a zeppelin if the propeller is not powered ?
Zeppelin will not be able to go faster than the wind speed.
Frankly, I do not see a difference between the two cases - Zeppelin vs. Blackbird..
Both are powered by the tail wind..
 

Offline bdunham7

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What do we say about such behavior?

It's entertaining?  :)  Dunning Kruger on crack?  I think Alex put it best--it's getting to be in Time Cube territory.  Look up Time Cube if you don't get the reference.

https://timecube.2enp.com/
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Offline electrodacus

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Nope - forget the vehicle, no vehicle here, no cables, no wheels
Only a zeppelin with the propeller mounted on the zeppelin the same way as it was on the Blackbird..

What will be the role of the propeller on a zeppelin if the propeller is not powered ?
Zeppelin will not be able to go faster than the wind speed.
Frankly, I do not see a difference between the two cases - Zeppelin vs. Blackbird..
Both are powered by the tail wind..

Blackbird drives on the ground and Zeppelin drives in the air so no contact with ground.
Blackbird takes power from the wheel to spin the propeller and since your Zeppelin has no contact with ground it can not power the propeller.

Offline Labrat101

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On the video with the bet for 10K with the professor.. Derek wins the Bet and get the 10K .. So Why cant every one understand .
This works its been proven to work . and the concept is quite simple . You just have to think out of the BOX .
The same as the aeroplane cant take off from a rolling road .
and a Zeppelin  Can not fly faster than tail wind because it flies in 1 (ONE medium air) Need two .  But can burn faster with a good tail wind  :-DD
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Offline electrodacus

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So yes you need to understand the difference between a powered ON fixed relative to ground treadmill and a powered off and dragged relative to ground treadmill.
Until you get this difference you will have a wrong idea of how the vehicle works.

Offline IanB

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Blackbird drives on the ground and Zeppelin drives in the air so no contact with ground.
Blackbird takes power from the wheel to spin the propeller and since your Zeppelin has no contact with ground it can not power the propeller.

Careful now--if you start saying things like that, you will undermine your position.
 

Offline iMo

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Nope - forget the vehicle, no vehicle here, no cables, no wheels
Only a zeppelin with the propeller mounted on the zeppelin the same way as it was on the Blackbird..

What will be the role of the propeller on a zeppelin if the propeller is not powered ?
Zeppelin will not be able to go faster than the wind speed.
Frankly, I do not see a difference between the two cases - Zeppelin vs. Blackbird..
Both are powered by the tail wind..

Blackbird drives on the ground and Zeppelin drives in the air so no contact with ground.
Blackbird takes power from the wheel to spin the propeller and since your Zeppelin has no contact with ground it can not power the propeller.
How could the Blackbird's propeller take the power from the wheels? Where the "power of the wheels" comes from?
For both Zeppelin and Blackbird the only source of energy I can see is the tail wind..
 

Offline electrodacus

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On the video with the bet for 10K with the professor.. Derek wins the Bet and get the 10K .. So Why cant every one understand .
This works its been proven to work . and the concept is quite simple . You just have to think out of the BOX .
The same as the aeroplane cant take off from a rolling road .
and a Zeppelin  Can not fly faster than tail wind because it flies in 1 (ONE medium air) Need two .  But can burn faster with a good tail wind  :-DD

Neither the professor or Derek understood how vehicle works.
Bet was that vehicle can or can not exceed wind speed and Derek proved to professor with the treadmill prototype that vehicle can exceed wind speed.
Since neither of them seen the energy storage device that I call pressure differential they where not able to understand how the vehicle works.

I do not claim that Blackbird vehicle can not exceed wind speed as based on my theory it works exactly the same as shown in tests. What I claim is that stored energy is used for that and so if test will have been long enough the slow down will have been seen.
You seem to be the most intelligent here so I'm sure you will be able to get what I'm saying.

Here is my wheel only analogy first without energy storage so vehicle can not move from left to right


And second with energy storage the spiral spring that emulates the air pressure differential.  The spring connects the motor to the wheel

This one with the spiral spring (same as you get on a measure tape) will work exactly like the propeller based treadmill model in Derek's video.

Offline electrodacus

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How could the Blackbird's propeller take the power from the wheels? Where the "power of the wheels" comes from?
For both Zeppelin and Blackbird the only source of energy I can see is the tail wind..

Yes exactly the right question.
Below wind speed power at the wheel comes from wind and above wind speed power comes from stored energy in pressure differential so it will be for a limited amount of time than blackbird will be above wind speed not indefinitely as claimed.
Blackbird or the Zeppelin can not use any energy from the tail wind when vehicle speed is above that tail wind speed.

Offline Labrat101

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On the video with the bet for 10K with the professor.. Derek wins the Bet and get the 10K .. So Why cant every one understand .
This works its been proven to work . and the concept is quite simple . You just have to think out of the BOX .
The same as the aeroplane cant take off from a rolling road .
and a Zeppelin  Can not fly faster than tail wind because it flies in 1 (ONE medium air) Need two .  But can burn faster with a good tail wind  :-DD

Neither the professor or Derek understood how vehicle works.
Bet was that vehicle can or can not exceed wind speed and Derek proved to professor with the treadmill prototype that vehicle can exceed wind speed.
Since neither of them seen the energy storage device that I call pressure differential they where not able to understand how the vehicle works.

I do not claim that Blackbird vehicle can not exceed wind speed as based on my theory it works exactly the same as shown in tests. What I claim is that stored energy is used for that and so if test will have been long enough the slow down will have been seen.
You seem to be the most intelligent here so I'm sure you will be able to get what I'm saying.

Here is my wheel only analogy first without energy storage so vehicle can not move from left to right


And second with energy storage the spiral spring that emulates the air pressure differential.  The spring connects the motor to the wheel

This one with the spiral spring (same as you get on a measure tape) will work exactly like the propeller based treadmill model in Derek's video.
First as far as I am concerned Professors are just people who think up a theory that is impossible to solve . so some one will sponsor them to solve
a problem that will take a 100 years and they get a Lab full of really cool equipment costing $MB get a great wage and live happy ever after on BS .
Just like the convener  belt . It has more questions than answers .
Bit like the riddle .. Have a 2 meter round pond with a Frog dead in the middle, How far does the frog have to jump to leave the pond area ???
.
.
Well .  no prize for getting it right

@ yes I understand or what you are Getting at .
Oh and a spring is kinetic energy a propeller is not ..  Forget the the conveyor  you are confusing yourself and thinking on the wrong lines .
 nice drawing .. But does not prove any thing sorry you have missed the real concept as i did try to explain how it works but .. maybe in another life time

« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 09:55:04 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline iMo

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How could the Blackbird's propeller take the power from the wheels? Where the "power of the wheels" comes from?
For both Zeppelin and Blackbird the only source of energy I can see is the tail wind..

Yes exactly the right question.
Below wind speed power at the wheel comes from wind and above wind speed power comes from stored energy in pressure differential so it will be for a limited amount of time than blackbird will be above wind speed not indefinitely as claimed.
Blackbird or the Zeppelin can not use any energy from the tail wind when vehicle speed is above that tail wind speed.

1. Both the Zeppelin and the Blackbird are "vehicles" with the same propeller design.
2. Both the Zeppelin and the Blackbird are powered by the energy of the tail wind only.
3. The Blackbird can go faster than the speed of the tail wind (based on the experiments we have seen).
4. Based on the above the Zeppelin should fly faster than the speed of the tail wind..
 :phew:
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 10:28:35 pm by imo »
 

Online Kleinstein

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How could the Blackbird's propeller take the power from the wheels? Where the "power of the wheels" comes from?
For both Zeppelin and Blackbird the only source of energy I can see is the tail wind..

Yes exactly the right question.
Below wind speed power at the wheel comes from wind and above wind speed power comes from stored energy in pressure differential so it will be for a limited amount of time than blackbird will be above wind speed not indefinitely as claimed.

Blackbird or the Zeppelin can not use any energy from the tail wind when vehicle speed is above that tail wind speed.

The red part is repeated over and over again as an argument, but it is plain wrong. Not so obvious, but still wrong.

The question if it is possible to gain energy from the wind when going faster is not an easy one and the big quitestion of the discussion here.
Even if it would be true, you could not use in the discussion - it is the question to decide. Using this as ana argument makes it a circular conclusion. So there is no need to repeat it, it just does not count as an argument.



The backbird uses the energy of the wind, but in a tricky way. Not directly as a simple sail.
The wheels dirve the prop and the prop drives the vehicle relative to the air. The question that remains is if (and under which conditions) the wheels can generate enough power from the given thrust (force) of the propeller to power the propeller. With more power from the wheels  the vehicle can go faster than the wind, with less power it can not - at least not in this way.

The result may be confusing, but the math is simple:
The power needed by the prop to generate a fixed amount of thrust is independent of the wind speed.
The power the generator can produce is force times speed. The speed is wind-speed plus a little from the movement in the air.

Plot the two in a graph (X= speed relative to ground, Y = power)  and the result is clear:
Given enough wind speed the generator can produce more power than the prop needs to pull it.
The calculation is steady state and thus no need for stored energy.
 

Offline electrodacus

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Just like the convener  belt . It has more questions than answers .
Bit like the riddle .. Have a 2 meter round pond with a Frog dead in the middle, How far does the frog have to jump to leave the pond area ???
.
.
Well .  no prize for getting it right

@ yes I understand or what you are Getting at .
Oh and a spring is kinetic energy a propeller is not ..  Forget the the conveyor  you are confusing yourself and thinking on the wrong lines .
 nice drawing .. But does not prove any thing sorry you have missed the real concept as i did try to explain how it works but .. maybe in another life time

The reason propeller was replace by a wheel is because people think propeller is something magic and not a wheel for air.
Also some do not understand what air is "magic again" so the Motor wheel is a perfect analogy to propeller and the spring while obviously not the same as pressure differential it will emulate that perfectly.
Air is a compressible material so it will act as a spring or rubber band or any sort of other elastic thing you can think of.
When I ask how is the Blackbird vehicle powered when vehicle is above wind speed the answer from Rick the creator and Derek is that propeller is powered by the wheel.  But such an explanation is absurd at best since what they claim is over-unity.

When you are above wind speed and you break the wheel to generate energy for propeller then that energy will come from the vehicle kinetic energy and if you do not put all that back then your vehicle speed will drop.
And no the fact that there is a difference in speed between the vehicle and air is not helping when vehicle speed i higher than air speed.
When vehicle is below wind speed the delta in speed will help the vehicle when wind and vehicle speed are equal in ideal case there is nothing to gain but when vehicle speed is above wind speed due to the direction of the delta it actually opposing the vehicle moving forward so the reverse of being helpful.

Thus my diagram removes all the magic and people here still thing that vehicle in that first diagram (no spring) can move from left to right when that is clearly not possible as generator wheel powers the motor wheel and so breaking energy will be higher than motor thrust energy thus vehicle will move backwards right to left in that drawing.

Offline electrodacus

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Blackbird or the Zeppelin can not use any energy from the tail wind when vehicle speed is above that tail wind speed.

The red part is repeated over and over again as an argument, but it is plain wrong. Not so obvious, but still wrong.

The red part is not wrong and there is no trick to make that right as if it was to be right it will violate the conservation of energy.
You always mention force when force has nothing to do with conservation of energy.
You only care about power and since propeller is powered by the wheel generator the power you take from the wheel is the most in ideal case you put in the propeller. In real world propeller output may be just 70% of what is available at the wheel so without stored energy the vehicle could never exceed wind speed.
Because of this misconception you also think that the wheel only vehicle in my diagram can move from left to right when that is not possible and you will never be able to prove something impossible.
But yes you can make changes to my diagram like that dragged paper instead of treadmill and claim they are equivalent when they are not even close to be equivalent.
So first person to show a video where a treadmill is used (even one made out of paper) and shows the vehicle able to move from left to right gets $1000 from me. And since I'm generous I will still offer $100 if you show what relay happens vehicle drives backwards with the treadmill but forward with a piece of paper.
I just do not want to spend the time to buy the supplies I will need to do that video myself plus is more credible coming from one of you. 


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