General > General Technical Chat
Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.
electrodacus:
I was thinking a bit more about the wheel only vehicle and why it works on the paper road.
It seems the friction + small amount of energy storage helps it move forward tho that is no proof that blackbird will work without energy storage.
What happen is that vehicle can not be pushed back by the moving paper due to higher friction on the back wheels (motor wheels) and the front wheels (generator wheels) instead of just slipping can rotate due to elastic nature of the belt so energy is stored in the belt (like a spring) then when that stored energy is high enough the vehicle will move a little bit forward using that stored energy and the same will repeat fairly fast (not easy to see with eyes (slow brain)) but can probably be seen in a high speed camera video.
Vehicle is not allowed to move backwards due to friction and thus allowing front wheels to store energy in to belt that then when enough is used to advance vehicle forward.
So while my wheel only example is good in theory to understand why blackbird will not work without energy storage is hard to demonstrate in practice since there is both friction and energy storage due to belt. A chain as transmission can also store energy especially if is a loose chain.
Probably showing how blackbird or small model of that will decelerate below wind speed once stored energy is used up is the best example or showing that without wind vehicle will still exceed the pushed speed.
Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible (since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle.
Brumby:
The wheels again....? :palm:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on September 17, 2021, 01:34:51 am ---Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible
--- End quote ---
Maybe it's because you are wrong.
--- Quote ---(since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle.
--- End quote ---
But there IS energy available. You are just limiting your vision to one aspect and, thus, are blinding yourself to the possibility. Until you get past that blindness, you will never understand.
..... and Lord knows there have been many attempts to help you see this.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: Brumby on September 17, 2021, 03:34:54 am ---The wheels again....? :palm:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on September 17, 2021, 01:34:51 am ---Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible
--- End quote ---
Maybe it's because you are wrong.
--- End quote ---
I'm not wrong. If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.
I was for example wrong about the treadmill vs moving paper part and that was because I just looked at the experimental result (that wheel vehicle video) and blindly said it is different as the results where not what was expected.
Thinking more about it I can see the reason that works the way it does and will work the same way with a treadmill is because in real world there is both friction and more importantly energy storage.
The belt used to gear the front and back wheels has elasticity thus energy storage and so front wheel move while the back wheels are not moving and those front wheels moving store energy in to that belt then when there is enough energy stored to be able to cancel the friction the vehicle moves forward for a bit then the same storage and movements repeat a bit faster than humans can observe in the video but I can make a better video if anyone wants to see that better.
--- Quote from: Brumby on September 17, 2021, 03:34:54 am ---
--- Quote ---(since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle.
--- End quote ---
But there IS energy available. You are just limiting your vision to one aspect and, thus, are blinding yourself to the possibility. Until you get past that blindness, you will never understand.
..... and Lord knows there have been many attempts to help you see this.
--- End quote ---
Do you not agree with that fact that all air molecules move in the opposite direction of travel when vehicle is above wind speed traveling in the wind direction?
If you agree with that then how will the vehicle have any usable energy from the wind to be able to accelerate ?
If you explain the same way as all others with taking energy from the wheels (reducing vehicle kinetic energy) and then use that to power the propeller then you same as many others are wrong as that will be called an over-unity device and nobody has ever proved that.
You need more energy put in to propeller than you took from the wheels just to maintain speed let alone accelerate. The only reason the blackbird continues to accelerate is the pressure differential stored energy while vehicle was below wind speed and was able to access wind energy.
What Lord are you referring to ? Hope is not one of those many imaginary gods people like to invent when they do not understand something.
IanB:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on September 17, 2021, 03:49:04 am ---Do you not agree with that fact that all air molecules move in the opposite direction of travel when vehicle is above wind speed traveling in the wind direction?
--- End quote ---
No, we do not agree.
--- Quote ---If you agree with that then how will the vehicle have any usable energy from the wind to be able to accelerate ?
--- End quote ---
We do not agree.
--- Quote ---If you explain the same way as all others with taking energy from the wheels (reducing vehicle kinetic energy) and then use that to power the propeller then you same as many others are wrong as that will be called an over-unity device and nobody has ever proved that.
--- End quote ---
The energy comes from the wind. It is not over-unity because the vehicle is powered by the wind.
--- Quote ---You need more energy put in to propeller than you took from the wheels just to maintain speed let alone accelerate.
--- End quote ---
Yes, the energy comes from the wind.
--- Quote ---The only reason the blackbird continues to accelerate is the pressure differential stored energy while vehicle was below wind speed and was able to access wind energy.
--- End quote ---
No, this is wrong. Experiments clearly show such vehicles being able to run for as long as the wind holds up.
You should really let this thread rest. We are tired of trying to explain things to you.
Labrat101:
From the video there was some extra acceleration when the Blackbird approached tail wind speed that lasted for only for a few seconds.
Maybe we have missed one hidden unknown .
The DRIVER .. 10 Guinness and a curry the evening before ;D
I think any thing is possible
BlackBird can run faster as long as all the conditions are stable
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