Author Topic: Mess with your minds: A wind powered craft going faster than a tail wind speed.  (Read 104099 times)

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Offline electrodacus

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I was thinking a bit more about the wheel only vehicle and why it works on the paper road.
It seems the friction + small amount of energy storage helps it move forward tho that is no proof that blackbird will work without energy storage.
What happen is that vehicle can not be pushed back by the moving paper due to higher friction on the back wheels (motor wheels) and the front wheels (generator wheels) instead of just slipping can rotate due to elastic nature of the belt so energy is stored in the belt (like a spring) then when that stored energy is high enough the vehicle will move a little bit forward using that stored energy and the same will repeat fairly fast (not easy to see with eyes (slow brain)) but can probably be seen in a high speed camera video.
Vehicle is not allowed to move backwards due to friction and thus allowing front wheels to store energy in to belt that then when enough is used to advance vehicle forward.

So while my wheel only example is good in theory to understand why blackbird will not work without energy storage is hard to demonstrate in practice since there is both friction and energy storage due to belt. A chain as transmission can also store energy especially if is a loose chain.

Probably showing how blackbird or small model of that will decelerate below wind speed once stored energy is used up is the best example or showing that without wind vehicle will still exceed the pushed speed.

Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible (since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle. 

Online Brumby

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The wheels again....?   :palm:

Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible
Maybe it's because you are wrong.

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(since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle.
But there IS energy available.  You are just limiting your vision to one aspect and, thus, are blinding yourself to the possibility.  Until you get past that blindness, you will never understand.

..... and Lord knows there have been many attempts to help you see this.
 

Offline electrodacus

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The wheels again....?   :palm:

Still is hard for me to understand why such a large majority thinks traveling above wind speed in same direction indefinitely can be possible
Maybe it's because you are wrong.

I'm not wrong. If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.
I was for example wrong about the treadmill vs moving paper part and that was because I just looked at the experimental result (that wheel vehicle video) and blindly said it is different as the results where not what was expected.
Thinking more about it I can see the reason that works the way it does and will work the same way with a treadmill is because in real world there is both friction and more importantly energy storage.
The belt used to gear the front and back wheels has elasticity thus energy storage and so front wheel move while the back wheels are not moving and those front wheels moving store energy in to that belt then when there is enough energy stored to be able to cancel the friction the vehicle moves forward for a bit then the same storage and movements repeat a bit faster than humans can observe in the video but I can make a better video if anyone wants to see that better.


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(since is clearly not the case as it is not allowed by the conservation of energy).
While vehicle is above wind speed there is no longer wind energy available to the vehicle.
But there IS energy available.  You are just limiting your vision to one aspect and, thus, are blinding yourself to the possibility.  Until you get past that blindness, you will never understand.

..... and Lord knows there have been many attempts to help you see this.

Do you not agree with that fact that all air molecules move in the opposite direction of travel when vehicle is above wind speed traveling in the wind direction?
If you agree with that then how will the vehicle have any usable energy from the wind to be able to accelerate ?
If you explain the same way as all others with taking energy from the wheels (reducing vehicle kinetic energy) and then use that to power the propeller then you same as many others are wrong as that will be called an over-unity device and nobody has ever proved that.
You need more energy put in to propeller than you took from the wheels just to maintain speed let alone accelerate.  The only reason the blackbird continues to accelerate is the pressure differential stored energy while vehicle was below wind speed and was able to access wind energy.

What Lord are you referring to ? Hope is not one of those many imaginary gods people like to invent when they do not understand something.

Offline IanB

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Do you not agree with that fact that all air molecules move in the opposite direction of travel when vehicle is above wind speed traveling in the wind direction?
No, we do not agree.

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If you agree with that then how will the vehicle have any usable energy from the wind to be able to accelerate ?
We do not agree.

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If you explain the same way as all others with taking energy from the wheels (reducing vehicle kinetic energy) and then use that to power the propeller then you same as many others are wrong as that will be called an over-unity device and nobody has ever proved that.
The energy comes from the wind. It is not over-unity because the vehicle is powered by the wind.

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You need more energy put in to propeller than you took from the wheels just to maintain speed let alone accelerate.
Yes, the energy comes from the wind.

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The only reason the blackbird continues to accelerate is the pressure differential stored energy while vehicle was below wind speed and was able to access wind energy.
No, this is wrong. Experiments clearly show such vehicles being able to run for as long as the wind holds up.

You should really let this thread rest. We are tired of trying to explain things to you.
 

Offline Labrat101

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From the video there was some extra acceleration when the Blackbird approached tail wind speed that lasted for only for a few seconds.
Maybe we have missed one hidden unknown .
The DRIVER .. 10 Guinness and a curry  the evening before   ;D

I think any thing is possible

BlackBird  can run faster as long as all the conditions are stable
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 08:53:36 am by Labrat101 »
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Offline PlainName

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I'm not wrong. If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.

Conversely, if you were right one of us would have been able to understand your explanation.

You're using a non-sequitur as proof, and not just in this example.
 

Offline Labrat101

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The Testing of Blackbird needs to be passed over to the mythbusters These guys have the resources to check every angle in controlled
tests .
I feel even though I see the theory of how it is possible . The real life video footage had so many easy tests that could have been implemented
Smoke trail , camera angles , High speed cameras 360 degree . wind speed constant monitoring ground level  . was it really flat? .
Yes he Won the Bet . But there seems to be a lot of missing data . Weight of the blackbird . Forward and back thrust being produced by the
propeller  real time measurements . There are really too many incomplete variables that are not shown .
 :popcorn:
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Online Brumby

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If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.
We have tried.  Several dozen times.  What prevents us from being successful is your steadfast refusal to consider, let alone accept the arguments that have been put before you - and your continued reliance on your own, flawed beliefs.  Even there, we have tried to explain the flaws, but you seem incapable of accepting that possibility.

You think you're right - and that's as far as your thinking goes.

How can we explain where you're wrong when you won't even listen?
 

Online Brumby

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The real life video footage had so many easy tests that could have been implemented
Smoke trail , camera angles , High speed cameras 360 degree . wind speed constant monitoring ground level  . was it really flat? .
Yes he Won the Bet . But there seems to be a lot of missing data . Weight of the blackbird . Forward and back thrust being produced by the
propeller  real time measurements . There are really too many incomplete variables that are not shown .
Instead of a smoke trail, they used a single ribbon.  That's all that was needed for this proof of concept demonstration.

All those other factors you mention are the sort of thing you would explore if you were going to find optimum parameters.  They aren't really necessary to prove the concept.
 

Offline electrodacus

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Do you not agree with that fact that all air molecules move in the opposite direction of travel when vehicle is above wind speed traveling in the wind direction?
No, we do not agree.

Please provide details if you do not agree.
My statement is not only very simple but also correct so I wait for you explain how my statement is incorrect

Offline Kleinstein

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The typical molecule velocity from the thermal movement is about at the speed of sound.

The propeller in the prop driven vehicle makes the air around the propeller to more slower than the wind. So the wind can push against that moving air.
Relative to the vehicle that air mores in the opposite direction of the travel, but relative to ground the air pushed by the prop is still moving in the direction of the wind and vehicle.
 

Offline electrodacus

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I'm not wrong. If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.

Conversely, if you were right one of us would have been able to understand your explanation.

Fair point.

You're using a non-sequitur as proof, and not just in this example.

I needed to google non-sequitur.
There may have been small mistakes that I made like assuming treadmill will be different from a dragged paper.  I just looked at the experimental result and concluded that was not possible from theory with a treadmill so lazy way of thinking lead me to the wrong conclusion that they are somehow different.
That is the same sort of mistake you are doing when looking at the blackbird test result or the small treadmill prototype of blackbird.

While not related with blackbird this wheel only cart and how it can advance forward is an interesting problem that is also wrongly interpreted.
There is a hysteresis for the wheel slip and that together with energy storage is what allows this wheel cart vehicle advance in the opposite direction to treadmill or paper road direction.
I will try to find some time to make a video that better show what I'm saying as I ordered a toy wheel car on amazon and just got that yesterday.
What I can show is that by moving the paper slowly under the front generator wheels the front wheels move while the back wheels do not move at all and since the wheels are connected (by an elastic rubber band) energy is stored in that.
Then at some point front generator wheels start to slip and since at that point lower power is needed the stored energy in the belt can move the vehicle forward by rotating the back wheels then this will repeat.
So there is generating and storing energy while vehicle is stationary then at the point the generator wheel starts to slip the stored energy is put in the back wheel that drives the vehicle forward.
If you think there is no hysteresis here is one of the many papers on that https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/93899/bojanad_1.pdf

Offline electrodacus

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If I was wrong one of you will have been able to explain where I'm wrong.
We have tried.  Several dozen times.  What prevents us from being successful is your steadfast refusal to consider, let alone accept the arguments that have been put before you - and your continued reliance on your own, flawed beliefs.  Even there, we have tried to explain the flaws, but you seem incapable of accepting that possibility.

You think you're right - and that's as far as your thinking goes.

How can we explain where you're wrong when you won't even listen?
I promise I will never refuse a sound argument.
Seems you refuse to understand that above wind speed no energy can be extracted from the wind (at least not useful energy that will be able to accelerate the vehicle forward). If you want to break the vehicle then yes you can use wind energy for that when above wind speed but that is not what you want or claim that happens.
We are also talking about a very specific case where vehicle drives in the same direction as the wind as at any angle to wind direction there will be air molecules driving faster than vehicle.

Offline electrodacus

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The typical molecule velocity from the thermal movement is about at the speed of sound.

The propeller in the prop driven vehicle makes the air around the propeller to more slower than the wind. So the wind can push against that moving air.
Relative to the vehicle that air mores in the opposite direction of the travel, but relative to ground the air pushed by the prop is still moving in the direction of the wind and vehicle.

You will be the only one to make this claim.  Wind is different and separate for the random motion of air molecules due to air temperature.
This vehicle is advertised as wind power not thermal powered.
Yes air molecules movement relative to vehicle is what is important and when vehicle is below wind speed wind energy can be used to accelerate the vehicle.  When vehicle exceeds wind speed (same exact direction of travel as the wind) the air molecules move in the opposite direction so it will oppose the vehicle that will be the opposite of helpful.  The sign basically changes.
And if someone just reads this I need to mention that I know blackbird can drive significantly faster than wind speed it is just that the reason it can do that is stored energy not the fact that it can use in any way wind energy directly as that is just impossible in this particular case.

Offline PlainName

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since the wheels are connected (by an elastic rubber band)

Don't use an elastic band - it is introducing something that's not necessary and just confuses things (such as, allowing you to claim energy storage). Ideally use a toothed belt, but failing that a tight piece of string would be better.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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It is a false assumption that one can not extract emergy from the wind when moving faster. It may be against intuition of a simple mind, but it works. The blckbird vehicle demonstartes it and the in the video there is a an explaination on how it works. The explaination does not need energy storage.

The concepts with energy storage does not work, there is just no significant energy storage. The litter energy storrage that may be there is good for a few ms to maybe 1/10 s a second, but that's it. So the idea does not work to explain the observation.

Just claiming that the vehicle can not harness the energy from the wind when going faster is not a valid argument.


Relative to the vehicle the air around it will move in the opposite direction, not just from the speed of the vehicle, but also from the prop. Energy is used to move the wind that way even faster than just from the difference in velocity. So just looking in the reference system of the vehicle, the prop does not get energy from the wind, but it creates force or thrust in the forward direction. In the vehicles reference system the wheeels are harnessing power from the ground moving relative to the vehicle.  The surprising point is that the wheels can generate more power than is needed to drive the prop.
It may help to understand the concept of force for this.
 

Offline electrodacus

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since the wheels are connected (by an elastic rubber band)

Don't use an elastic band - it is introducing something that's not necessary and just confuses things (such as, allowing you to claim energy storage). Ideally use a toothed belt, but failing that a tight piece of string would be better.

The rubber band just shows the effect more pronounced and I tried to build one using gears only but due to the toy nature of my cart there was still significant amount of energy storage in the vehicle body flex that can be seen in the video I just posted.
Not sure how low the energy storage capacity will need to be for the vehicle not to advance forward but if energy storage will be zero then is guaranteed that vehicle could not move in the opposite direction of the paper road.
So basically the back wheels are in locked and the front wheel will start to store energy until they slip and in that moment because of the stick-slip hysteresis the vehicle can advance a bit forward then front wheel can start storing energy again and process continues.
So the movement is not smooth it is start/stop multiple times much more visible in a vehicle with a soft and long rubber band and less visible the stiffer the belt is as the start/stop frequency will be much higher and could only be seen by a high speed camera.
If there was no storage at all then front wheel could not move without the back wheel moving so then either the front of the back wheels will just slip continuously and there will be no forward movement of the vehicle.   

https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/wheel-cart-energy-storage:3
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 04:05:23 pm by electrodacus »
 

Offline PlainName

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still significant amount of energy storage in the vehicle body flex that can be seen in the video I just posted.

Well done for posting the experiment.

The lack of wheel grip was expected. I wouldn't have called it energy storage, but I suppose you could get away with that, despite the amount being trivial.

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So the movement is not smooth it is start/stop

Can you point to any part of this discussion that demands the progress be actually smooth rather than having the appearance of same? AFAIA, the requirement was simply that the vehicle moves left to right, something you insisted was impossible.

More importantly, whether or not it does that in a hop, skip or jump, it will continue to do so for as long as the paper lasts (or forever if on a treadmill). Your supposition, as I understood it, was that such effects would be temporary and last only as long as the initial energy storage could give a boost.
 

Offline electrodacus

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still significant amount of energy storage in the vehicle body flex that can be seen in the video I just posted.

Well done for posting the experiment.

The lack of wheel grip was expected. I wouldn't have called it energy storage, but I suppose you could get away with that, despite the amount being trivial.

Energy storage is done in yellow rubber band for first vehicle and in frame torsion in the second vehicle.


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So the movement is not smooth it is start/stop

Can you point to any part of this discussion that demands the progress be actually smooth rather than having the appearance of same? AFAIA, the requirement was simply that the vehicle moves left to right, something you insisted was impossible.

More importantly, whether or not it does that in a hop, skip or jump, it will continue to do so for as long as the paper lasts (or forever if on a treadmill). Your supposition, as I understood it, was that such effects would be temporary and last only as long as the initial energy storage could give a boost.

I was pointing out the non smooth nature of the movement so that you can see that energy is stored then released so there are micro cycles of storing energy then releasing.
Of course being able to break the back wheels (even if that if from friction only) and then produce energy on the front wheel and store that energy then latter release that to move a bit forward will not brake any laws.
What you (most of you) where saying is that an ideal vehicle with no friction and no energy storage can advance forward and that is not the case.
This combination of friction (back wheel locked) and the energy storage device allows you to store energy then use that to advance a bit forward.
Is fairly similar to how blackbird will work is just that energy storage is order of magnitude larger so to see that store then hop to above wind speed then drop below wind speed and charge again are at a much larger time scale.
So is like you had seen just a small fraction of my video in super slow motion and then you will think the same as you think about the blackbird.
As most of you say the blackbird will stay above wind speed indefinitely (incorrect) while I say blackbird will stay above wind speed only as long as there is still stored energy so depending on vehicle construction (amount of energy that can be stored and vehicle friction losses) from a few seconds to a few minutes.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 05:35:57 pm by electrodacus »
 

Offline electrodacus

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Here is a slow down version of the first belt type vehicle to best observe what happens and you can even slow down to 0.25x from the video player menu.
https://odysee.com/@dacustemp:8/wheel-cart-energy-storage-slow:8
Is fairly clear that vehicle stores energy and when that is large enough the vehicle will use it to advance forward. Motion seems smoother the smaller the storage capacity is since charge discharge cycles happen faster than our brain can perceive.
Without any amount of energy storage the vehicle will not be able to move forward left to right.

Offline fourfathom

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I say blackbird will stay above wind speed only as long as there is still stored energy so depending on vehicle construction (amount of energy that can be stored and vehicle friction losses) from a few seconds to a few minutes.

I know I'm jumping in here, but how do you reconcile your claim with the fact that Blackbird (and demonstrations with similar craft) show the craft maintains a significant multiple of the true wind speed while continuing to accelerate?  The typical, and measured wind gusts come nowhere close to exceeding the craft speed as evidenced by the wind-indicator ribbons.  And even if there were significant gusts, I see no energy storage system (inertia, flex, etc), especially in the tiny treadmill devices, that could maintain speed for any appreciable time.


[Yes, my question below is indeed answered in the thread]

One factor I haven't deeply studied (and may have already been answered in this thread), is how the craft gets started from an initial zero ground speed?  If the propeller were symmetrical in push/pull then wouldn't the craft be driven upwind?  I see two possibilities:
1) The propeller has more drag than lift when spinning "backwards", or
2) There is an initial"push" given to the craft that gets the propeller spinning fast enough to generate lift.  This is certainly the case in the treadmill tests, but I don't see it in the Blackbird tests.

But even if #2 is the case, it doesn't invalidate the general principal being demonstrated.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 07:43:11 pm by fourfathom »
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Offline fourfathom

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Is fairly clear that vehicle stores energy and when that is large enough the vehicle will use it to advance forward. Motion seems smoother the smaller the storage capacity is since charge discharge cycles happen faster than our brain can perceive.
Without any amount of energy storage the vehicle will not be able to move forward left to right.

I think you're just seeing stiction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction).  Eliminate stiction (but some amount of friction is still OK), and there will be no jumps, only steady motion.
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Offline electrodacus

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I say blackbird will stay above wind speed only as long as there is still stored energy so depending on vehicle construction (amount of energy that can be stored and vehicle friction losses) from a few seconds to a few minutes.

I know I'm jumping in here, but how do you reconcile your claim with the fact that Blackbird (and demonstrations with similar craft) show the craft maintains a significant multiple of the true wind speed while continuing to accelerate?  The typical, and measured wind gusts come nowhere close to exceeding the craft speed as evidenced by the wind-indicator ribbons.  And even if there were significant gusts, I see no energy storage system (inertia, flex, etc), especially in the tiny treadmill devices, that could maintain speed for any appreciable time.

One factor I haven't deeply studied (and may have already been answered in this thread), is how the craft gets started from an initial zero ground speed?  If the propeller were symmetrical in push/pull then wouldn't the craft be driven upwind?  I see two possibilities:
1) The propeller has more drag than lift when spinning "backwards", or
2) There is an initial"push" given to the craft that gets the propeller spinning fast enough to generate lift.  This is certainly the case in the treadmill tests, but I don't see it in the Blackbird tests.

But even if #2 is the case, it doesn't invalidate the general principal being demonstrated.

You can see the effect of how blackbird works in my slow down video version.
The only difference is that blackbird has a significantly larger energy storage relative to vehicle weight.
In my video the vehicle moves in average about 2x slower than the moving paper but that is average and there are points where vehicle is basically stationary and also moments where vehicle has same or slightly higher speed than the paper. It can be better design to exceed significantly the speed of the paper at peaks but average will always be way below the paper speed.
Blackbird works exactly the same but due to much larger energy storage you where able to see just less than a cycle in their demo so you seen the charge phase when wind speed was lower than vehicle speed and then you seen vehicle use that stored energy to accelerate above wind speed but what you where not able to see due to short duration of that test is the slowing down well below wind speed part.

In the initial phase of the blackbird acceleration the vehicle works exactly like a sail vehicle and the sail is the vehicle body including the propeller blade.
While the propeller starts to spin the equivalent sail gets larger and larger but unlike a simple sail it also pushes air backwards as propeller is used as a fan and this is what allows storing enough energy to exceed wind speed for some limited amount of time.

If I where to compete with a similar vehicle just using a round 5.3m diameter sail instead of the propeller I will win the race any time against the blackbird.
What will happen is that I will be the first to accelerate while blackbird will waste a lot of time initially to store energy and while blackbird will have higher top speed the average speed will be lower due propeller being less efficient than a sail.
So if the race is about top speed then blackbird can win but if it is about getting first to finish line then sail vehicle will win.

Offline electrodacus

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Is fairly clear that vehicle stores energy and when that is large enough the vehicle will use it to advance forward. Motion seems smoother the smaller the storage capacity is since charge discharge cycles happen faster than our brain can perceive.
Without any amount of energy storage the vehicle will not be able to move forward left to right.

I think you're just seeing stiction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction).  Eliminate stiction (but some amount of friction is still OK), and there will be no jumps, only steady motion.

You can not have steady motion from left to right. Without the energy storage part the vehicle will be unable to move from left to right as that will violate the conservation of energy.
If you have lower amount of of energy storage then this speed variation will be smaller harder to perceive but can not be eliminated.
The gear vehicle in my first video is smoother but while it has about the same gear ratio is harder to make it move from left to right so if I could have a stiffer vehicle so less energy storage there will likely be the point where energy storage is to small and vehicle will no longer be able to move at all from left to right (maybe some micro movements but in average it will move backwards or just stay in place).

Just imagine that there was no elastic energy storage in that slow down vehicle and front wheel will start to slip what then can power the back wheels if there is no energy storage and no power from the front wheels.

Offline fourfathom

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Where is the energy storage in a lever?  Where is it in a gear ratio?  Energy storage is not required here.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 07:47:33 pm by fourfathom »
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