Microsoft teaming up with Qualcomm to bring windows10/x86 to arm

[JPortici]

apparently they are working to bring full x86 software compatibility. somewhere else i also read about windows 10 on arm using adobe software at very decent speed

https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2016/12/08/qualcomm-collaborates-microsoft-support-windows-10-computing-devices-next

[BravoV]

So blue screen on smart phone is coming ? 

[Halcyon]

So blue screen on smart phone is coming ? 

BSODs are few and far between these days* and it's usually down to a hardware fault or broken drivers.

Even on the crappiest Acer computer I have on my desk at work, I can't remember the last time Windows had an issue. Yes, it runs like absolute shit but that's the fault of the crap hardware I have to work with. I have had to reboot my various smart phones I've had over the years far more often. Then there's all the lovely Apple IOS glitches.

*Caveat: Unless you're running one of those horrible versions of Windows (95a, Millennium Edition, Vista...)

[hans]

Could be possible, but I bet this is somekind of x86 to ARM JIT recompiler to translate x86 CISC instructions to ARM RISC instructions.
I can't imagine any software emulator to be fast enough.

In particular this is how Apple kept compatibility with old powerpc applications and the newer intel machines. So this could show that Microsoft has serious plans for mobile.

[Ampera]

Could be possible, but I bet this is somekind of x86 to ARM JIT recompiler to translate x86 CISC instructions to ARM RISC instructions.
I can't imagine any software emulator to be fast enough.

In particular this is how Apple kept compatibility with old powerpc applications and the newer intel machines. So this could show that Microsoft has serious plans for mobile.

Honestly if Microsoft stopped existing altogether, it would probably make the industry a better place. Everybody is stuck in a strange spot where Windows sucks, but everything is programmed for Windows, so you can't really use anything else effectively. If everybody moved development to Linux, Windows would die and we would have faster, more secure operating systems for everybody. Also for FREE too.

[Monkeh]

Yes, because everyone would just write all the code for free, because it's not Windows.

[dr.diesel]

I can't do this till this day on Linux.

gambas3

[Ampera]

Because nobody wants to program linux distros anymore. There are decent ones like Linux Mint in which I've never had stability issues. And what do you mean by robust? Packages in Windows not existing? I've had an Ubuntu install that was half server half desktop which made for a really weird experience, but it kept working. Stability really has never been a problem for me on either operating system though.

And are you kidding? Linux programming isn't hard. Java is the classic code once debug everywhere, but it works to some degree, and it's not a hard language. And Linux has support for all the C variants, and it has SUPERIOR support for things like Python, Ruby, Lua, Pearl, etc. etc. because of it's terminal implementation that's not from 42+ year old CP/M bases.

Another thing, a lot of the built in features like file sharing, disk management, system config, etc. etc. actually WORKS. When was the last time Samba behaved and did something you wanted it to? What about almost every Linux distro supporting practically unlimited amounts of partition types among other things. And I don't know how it is over in Windows 10, but system config is an unstable mess in Windows 7, and an unnavigable mess in Windows 8.x.

Linux also has WAY less overhead than Windows. In a resource intensive program like Minecraft which has the SAME binaries across all platforms, I increased performance about 25% on Linux over Windows.

Security is also a boost in Linux, although Microsoft has been closing the gap in recent years.

But I mean stability? Windows is INFAMOUS for shit that just don't work right. I don't think they have ever made an update client that doesn't crap out if you try to get a load of updates. An XP install used to be a multiple day JOB for most because of the craptastic update client. Network implementation is boned, with multi NIC communications among other things being plain broken. How about the 0 support for anything not NTFS or FAT?

I speak no hyperbole when I say the only reason I and most other people are using Windows is because Windows has all the software support

And ActiveX was dead ever since it came out, I mean do you seriously even use ActiveX (Which is only available on IE)?

I mean I've never head of needing a RAW C++ interface on Linux. You can use most programming languages you can on Windows. I think Microsoft has even released their .NET framework on Linux too. Not to mention Bash scripts are still pretty easy to do, the modern sorta basic.

Also

In Linux you have to things properly

Not sure what your going on about here.

[Howardlong]

If the Microsoft marketing wankers choose to cripple the ARM version as they did with Windows RT by disabling third party ARM-recompiled desktop apps, and only allowing Metro/Modern UI apps, then it's already dead.

[hans]

Wow, that derailed quickly. Normally I am the one who mentions something along the lines of /r/linuxmasterrace.

I think it's becoming obvious that in the coming few years computing like we know it will likely disappear for the average consumer. I emphasize 'average' or maybe even 'subaverage'.. i.e. you can exclude anyone that produces content, does work, is a power user or plays games.

Nevertheless there are tons of reports that people don't even own a laptop anymore. They do all their web browsing and social media stuff on their phone/phablet/tablet. New phones are more powerful than my 8 year old laptop, which still is fast enough for light development work, office tasks, casual web browsing and media playback.

That combined with:

- Computing platforms grow towards lower power solutions (but then they shrink the battery  )
- You can fit 128GB of storage in a mobile phone. Probably half a TB in a few years if SD cards get larger. Who has half a TB of "daily use files" that you absolutely must take with you everywhere you go? Then for the non-privacy conscious people there is also the cloud.
- Phones render PC resolution screen sizes, although pointless on 5"
- Mobile OS file security is a hot topic of which I believe only iOS has their stuff together right now. If Android and Windows does the same you shouldn't have to worry to tax report being leaked when your phone gets stolen.

All in all I imagine that manufacturers just put 1 USB C connection on a phone that will carry video, audio, USB, and charging. You can then log into your phone and use it like a 'desktop'. Similar to Ubuntu phone idea if I recall correctly, but that's linux and I don't want to mention that.

As mobile is dominated by ARM and Intel x86 has not caught on, it seems like a logical move to run x86 applications on ARM. Given that 99% of Windows applications is closed source rubbish, there is absolutely no chance you're every going to cross compile anything to get it to work.

So indeed, this emulation should work with every application. Including the ones that use shady libraries for hardware talking like serial and 3D acceleration please..
Because of course we need to use our USB to RS232 cables on a USB C <> USB3.1 hub <> USB2.0 hub <> USB1.1 connection.
Now.. if only ARM SoC's had thunderbolt...

[Karel]

Serious? None of the desktop Linux distributions are as robust as Windows. Windows can withstand quite some abuse and keep working.
You can expect latest software to be pushed to Windows while having a good quality.
In Linux? No. RHEL/Cent are stable, but packages are outdated. Ubuntu/Arch have new packages, but they have severe stability issues.
I want an OS to use latest packages, while don't have weird system program crashing. Ubuntu keeps throwing compiz crash message to me.

Also, Linux programming is hard. I can create vivid and fancy GUI programs in VB6 when I was 11 years old. I can't do this till this day on Linux.
Many cool ideas like ActiveX are not available in Linux, you have to use raw C++ interface to do similar thing, but in Windows VB6 you can do that by mouse clicking.

Serious? None of the windows versions are as robust as Linux. Linux can withstand quite some abuse and keep working.
You can expect latest software to be pushed to Linux while having a good quality.
In windows? No. Many times after an update, windows is stuck in a reboot/update loop. Sometimes, after an update, internet connection is broken.

Also, windows programming is hard. I can create vivid and fancy GUI programs in Qt. I can't do this till this day on windows.
Many cool ideas like easy driver development and an opensource kernel are not available in windows.

[JPortici]

I can create vivid and fancy GUI programs in VB6 when I was 11 years old.

and apparently visual studio is coming to mac pretty soon

[JPortici]

All in all I imagine that manufacturers just put 1 USB C connection on a phone that will carry video, audio, USB, and charging. You can then log into your phone and use it like a 'desktop'. Similar to Ubuntu phone idea if I recall correctly, but that's linux and I don't want to mention that.

i think that's the plan. microsoft wants to push continuum, which is an awesome concept that apple has yet to deliver and that would be useless on android (remember those laptops/all in ones with android? i for one want to forget them)

[Ampera]

Wow, that derailed quickly. Normally I am the one who mentions something along the lines of /r/linuxmasterrace.

I think it's becoming obvious that in the coming few years computing like we know it will likely disappear for the average consumer. I emphasize 'average' or maybe even 'subaverage'.. i.e. you can exclude anyone that produces content, does work, is a power user or plays games.

Nevertheless there are tons of reports that people don't even own a laptop anymore. They do all their web browsing and social media stuff on their phone/phablet/tablet. New phones are more powerful than my 8 year old laptop, which still is fast enough for light development work, office tasks, casual web browsing and media playback.

That combined with:

- Computing platforms grow towards lower power solutions (but then they shrink the battery  )
- You can fit 128GB of storage in a mobile phone. Probably half a TB in a few years if SD cards get larger. Who has half a TB of "daily use files" that you absolutely must take with you everywhere you go? Then for the non-privacy conscious people there is also the cloud.
- Phones render PC resolution screen sizes, although pointless on 5"
- Mobile OS file security is a hot topic of which I believe only iOS has their stuff together right now. If Android and Windows does the same you shouldn't have to worry to tax report being leaked when your phone gets stolen.

All in all I imagine that manufacturers just put 1 USB C connection on a phone that will carry video, audio, USB, and charging. You can then log into your phone and use it like a 'desktop'. Similar to Ubuntu phone idea if I recall correctly, but that's linux and I don't want to mention that.

As mobile is dominated by ARM and Intel x86 has not caught on, it seems like a logical move to run x86 applications on ARM. Given that 99% of Windows applications is closed source rubbish, there is absolutely no chance you're every going to cross compile anything to get it to work.

So indeed, this emulation should work with every application. Including the ones that use shady libraries for hardware talking like serial and 3D acceleration please..
Because of course we need to use our USB to RS232 cables on a USB C <> USB3.1 hub <> USB2.0 hub <> USB1.1 connection.
Now.. if only ARM SoC's had thunderbolt...

Grim view on the future.

For one, Android is linux, so lol.

Secondly you are predicting the industry will be moving faster than it did, even in the early 90s when CPU speeds were increasing so much, it became an annoyance to many people. Computers are here to stay for MANY years more.

Another thing you have to consider is that iOS is useless to almost everybody. If your goal is to spend 800-1200 dollars on a brick that can play a few apps that Apple spoon feeds you from tired devs, it's your lucky day, but if you want to do something like run an application that you actually WANT to use, like on a PC, you can't unless you modify the phone immensely (I.E. Jailbreaking).

Android isn't as bad. You can run what programs you want, and you can even replace it altogether, unlike iOS, but it's still not got what everybody wants to use.

And ANOTHER thing is that there already was a whole x86 mobile bubble before, and Intel seems to have thoroughly given up. I think Microsoft is jumping the gun slightly with support for ARM computers, instead of portables (Something that makes no sense, and never should make sense. With the exception of PPC, there hasn't been a mainstream RISC CPU that has gained a large following, because the CISC ideology better matches that of a desktop or portable, where power and space are less of an issue..

And Linux I can agree seems to be flickering as many distros like Mandriva have closed, and many mainstream systems are run by phenomenal idiots.

Windows sucks, it keeps us back, and I seriously do think if Microsoft straight up died, everybody would have a better time.

[hans]

...

Grim view on the future.

For one, ARM is linux, so lol.

Secondly you are predicting the industry will be moving faster than it did, even in the early 90s when CPU speeds were increasing so much, it became an annoyance to many people. Computers are here to stay for MANY years more.

I am not saying computers aren't vanishing. I am saying that a shift could happen for the consumer, prosumer, power user and mad scientist. The latter 2 will still use a desktop or laptop for years to come. But the first 1 or 2 can be served right now with a mobile device.

Computing power hasn't increased much at all in the last 5 years. It only got more power efficient and more features are offloaded to hardware, like DRM, crypto, video encoding/decoding, etc. There is absolutely no need at this moment to wait in high anticipation for Intel's new release.. it's the same ~5% IPC gain on a new chipset/socket to keep the cashflow up. I sincerely hope AMD's Zen chip can shudder the market awake again. The last (p)reviews I read about Kaby Lake basically show almost no performance improvements, and that's sad considering Skylake has been out for like 15 months now.

The only thing I've seen happen in the last 5 years is that devices got smaller because they use less power. Hence the ultrabooks. And if you get a midrange model with i5, it will probably last you for 5+ years. Just like my previous machine did. No need to get a quad core machine with a GPU for your uncle.. a dual core with a small SSD is probably enough for all they know.

I think it's quite obvious that Microsoft wants to open their cashflow oppertunities in other area's. ARM = linux yes. Windows mobile is still almost unused. Yet some people spend more on smartphones than on healthy food, and for the last years it's all been about iOS and Android. Combine that with the longer lifespan of computers, and it makes sense they want some of that junk food budget.

Another thing you have to consider is that iOS is useless to almost everybody. If your goal is to spend 800-1200 dollars on a brick that can play a few apps that Apple spoon feeds you from tired devs, it's your lucky day, but if you want to do something like run an application that you actually WANT to use, like on a PC, you can't unless you modify the phone immensely (I.E. Jailbreaking).

Android isn't as bad. You can run what programs you want, and you can even replace it altogether, unlike iOS, but it's still not got what everybody wants to use.

I think you could apply your rant at iOS on Android too. Mobile OS's suck for productivity. I cringe every time I want to multi task via a touchscreen on my smartphone. It just doesn't work. But we know better because folks like us probably spend 9+ hours behind computers every day, maybe even 80+ hours a week. We know how useful ALT+TAB is, virtual workspaces, ssh, virtual machines with snapshots, remote desktops, etc. And then I am not even considering some of the mobile "apps". Some applications are so basic that I rather revert back to pen and paper.

But that is just the software. The hardware isn't that slow. consider this:
https://browser.primatelabs.com/processor-benchmarks
https://browser.primatelabs.com/android-benchmarks

If we consider a decent SoC at 1000 & 2776 points (SC/MC), and a netbook CPU like the Pentium N3700 at 1027 & 2816 points (SC/MC), there really isn't much in it. And like I said a Pentium N3700 is enough for a lot consumers.

And ANOTHER thing is that there already was a whole x86 mobile bubble before, and Intel seems to have thoroughly given up. I think Microsoft is jumping the gun slightly with support for ARM computers, instead of portables (Something that makes no sense, and never should make sense. With the exception of PPC, there hasn't been a mainstream RISC CPU that has gained a large following, because the CISC ideology better matches that of a desktop or portable, where power and space are less of an issue..

And Linux I can agree seems to be flickering as many distros like Mandriva have closed, and many mainstream systems are run by phenomenal idiots.

Windows sucks, it keeps us back, and I seriously do think if Microsoft straight up died, everybody would have a better time.

I think Microsoft is gambling that this will eventually work. Or maybe they have some info from inside the hardware industry that isn't announced yet. Windows 8 RT was a big fail, people didn't even buy it with an included license of Office RT. That was all down to software which is basically Microsoft's share of pie. Windows RT was even worse than any mobile OS, because lack of applications. If this  Windows RT does run x86 applications, that could change it quite a bit.

Stiil though considering how difficult it is to get stable and fully functional ARM Linux images on various SBC now, I wonder how Microsoft will cope with this. A little while ago Torvalds also said that ARM is horrible to develop for. The problem is a lack of device enumeration that works across all platforms. Apparantly there is no such thing as listAllPciDevices(please);

Unless Microsoft has some briljant people in house (which I highly doubt considering their track record), it will likely only run on just a few "certified" boards because images need to be customized for each platform.

[Rick Law]

It would be a good thing to have more competition on the OS front, be it on the laptop, smartphone, or tablet format.

Dreaming, I know - I would like to have an OS that doesn't track the user's every move and allow the user some measure of privacy.

[eugenenine]

So blue screen on smart phone is coming ? 

BSODs are few and far between these days* and it's usually down to a hardware fault or broken drivers.

BlueSOD only ceased to exist because they changed to color.  Though most of the problems with Windows today don't result in a <current color? SOD.  Its more of the too long to shutdown to it hibernated now it is stuck coming out of hibernate.  Or the Rebooted for a random patch while I was typing a document.  Or disabled services re-enabled after the last patch/reboot.  Or your hardware is supported and shows no errors but it just doesn't work.

[eugenenine]

Could be possible, but I bet this is somekind of x86 to ARM JIT recompiler to translate x86 CISC instructions to ARM RISC instructions.
I can't imagine any software emulator to be fast enough.

In particular this is how Apple kept compatibility with old powerpc applications and the newer intel machines. So this could show that Microsoft has serious plans for mobile.

Honestly if Microsoft stopped existing altogether, it would probably make the industry a better place. Everybody is stuck in a strange spot where Windows sucks, but everything is programmed for Windows, so you can't really use anything else effectively. If everybody moved development to Linux, Windows would die and we would have faster, more secure operating systems for everybody. Also for FREE too.

I don't think they will ever disappear, I mean there are still boxen running OS2, Novel, Solaris, that Amiga running the schools HVAC,etc.  Plenty of examples of OS's which technically ceased two decades ago but are still in use.

What needs to happen is the market share of the 'big three/four' (MS, Apple, Linux & android depending if you lump it under linux or count it separate) needs to even out.  If Microsoft doesn't have >90% of the market then they won't have the power to force privacy invasions on users.

The way to do that is to use cross-platform tools.  Sure it may take 1 hour less to write code for a $brand$ MCU than a Pic or Adruino but when you factor in three hours or rebooting/patching/rolling back drivers in windows then MPLabX starts to look better.

[Karel]

Dreaming, I know - I would like to have an OS that doesn't track the user's every move and allow the user some measure of privacy.

Why dreaming? That OS exists, I use it while writing this reply...

Edit: At least on the deskto/laptop. Mobile is another story...

[Karel]

BSODs ... and it's usually down to a hardware fault or broken drivers.

If Linux doesn't work well with a certain piece of hardware, it's the fault of Linux.
If windows doesn't work well with a certain piece of hardware, it's the fault of the driver.

[Fsck]

BSODs ... and it's usually down to a hardware fault or broken drivers.

If Linux doesn't work well with a certain piece of hardware, it's the fault of Linux.
If windows doesn't work well with a certain piece of hardware, it's the fault of the driver.

linux has driver issues too... it's just harder to encounter them.

[nctnico]

Serious? None of the desktop Linux distributions are as robust as Windows. Windows can withstand quite some abuse and keep working.
You can expect latest software to be pushed to Windows while having a good quality.
In Linux? No. RHEL/Cent are stable, but packages are outdated. Ubuntu/Arch have new packages, but they have severe stability issues.
I want an OS to use latest packages, while don't have weird system program crashing. Ubuntu keeps throwing compiz crash message to me.

Also, Linux programming is hard. I can create vivid and fancy GUI programs in VB6 when I was 11 years old. I can't do this till this day on Linux.

IMHO you are a typical Windows user who expects everything works the same on Linux as it does on Windows. The world doesn't work that way. If you are used to the way Linux works you'll find a lot of things are way easier and more stable. Regarding your GUI program: you could use Python for example to create GUI programs and there are a huge amount of Python libraries available. It is just a matter of learning how to do things in a different way.

For example: save this to a file and make it executable and you'll have your first Python GUI application.

Code: [Select]

#!/usr/bin/python

import Tkinter
top = Tkinter.Tk()
# Code to add widgets will go here...
top.mainloop()


[Karel]

A graphical version of "Hello world!"

Save this as "test.pro":

Code: [Select]

TEMPLATE = app
TARGET = test
DEPENDPATH += .
INCLUDEPATH += .
CONFIG += qt
CONFIG += warn_on
CONFIG += release

QT += widgets

OBJECTS_DIR = ./objects
MOC_DIR = ./moc

SOURCES += main.cpp

Save this as "main.cpp":

Code: [Select]

#include <QApplication>
#include <QLabel>

int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
  QApplication app(argc, argv);

  QLabel label("Hello world!");

  label.show();

  return app.exec();
}

Now run the following commands:

qmake-qt5
make

[BBBbbb]

I had my Fedora brick a month ago, after/during an update, and I never had that with Win. I've just downloaded Mint to give it a go and replace bricked Fedora.
I'm not saying this is a general rule, just pointing out that Linux is not so stable as perceived. I'd rather say it is in more experienced hands than Win, therefore, less bad experience from users.
I can easily see why an engineer would prefer Linux to Windows, but you often come across no Linux alternatives to some good SW available only to Win users.

MS seems to get every second iteration of Windows right, so that's how I'm using it. I've been using win10 for about a year now and I like it generally. It has some bloatware, but it is practically plug and play for 90% of hardware, even for more specific USB to something adapters (from mainstream to Chinese chips).
It is an OS primarily for general public, not superusers, and beats everything else in that segment. Additionally there is a lot of legacy MS needs to carry from OS to OS, and it is not an easy task and cripples development.


On topic (MS to arm):
IMO if this is somewhat successful project, it will bring a lot of good changes to the market. It could finally push Intel seriously out of their "fat margins" world into the competitive mobile segment, with no Atom bullshit anymore. As long as MS is keeping them in a position to have their markups high, they will not give a serious run at a mobile segment.
 

[nctnico]

For the last two decades Debian has been working fine for me. It doesn't have the latest versions of the software but at least it has the stable versions.

[hans]

Windows != Linux. Both systems have other mindsets.
If you're not accustomed to it, you will likely complain about Linux.
If you're accustomed to it, you will likely complain about Windows.

Ubuntu Linux has many drivers baked inside the kernel, also many non-free ones. I only had to switch drivers for my NVIDIA graphics card to proprietary.
Windows OTOH moans about unsigned USB drivers for my own fr'king hardware, even it's simple like CDC, keyboard or mouse. It's annoying enough in W7 - don't even start about W8 or W10.

I've never been able to screw up the dpkg manager out of the ordinary. Only on a hard shutdown or hard abort of the install process. Which is something you never do, neither on Windows.
Why should a reboot fix this? What is magical about a reboot process that should clear up the mistake that just happened? On Windows this seems like the magical fix because it was confused, on Linux it should just lead to the same state prior to reboot. This makes systems more predictable, but it does mean you should get it properly fixed.

I am more happy with Linux than Windows because applications start from the CLI and maybe work up to a GUI. Namely, you can access almost all of the systems and tools functionality from the CLI. This is awesome for headless servers and scripts. Ever seen a script for automating a GUI? It's a horror show.


There is a better substitute for regedit on Linux. It's called /etc/ with configuration files and a text editor. Crapped your settings? Just place back the .bak file and restart the service.

And my personal favorite of Linux: if you run rm / ; it will warn you do you really want to do that? Sure let's do that.. add --no-preserve root.
And so it complies. It removes all your files, including on mounted partitions like harddrives, network drives and the UEFI BIOS if you had that mounted.

That sounds retarded. But it's merely the lack of understanding what the command really does and can affect, than the command being retarded. The command did what it has been told. It's like calling the garbage company to come and clean all your belongings (including your wedding rings and family photo books) from your house. I'm sure they will comply if you tell them '--no-preserve-root' too.

[nctnico]

And my personal favorite of Linux: if you run rm / ; it will warn you do you really want to do that? Sure let's do that.. add --no-preserve root.

I think I know why that is in there... About 2 decades ago an ISP I used to connect to internet was also very active in Linux development. At some point someone typed something like rm myname / (note the extra space!) which promptly deleted all files on the server which had all the homepages and ftp server.