General > General Technical Chat

Migrating the forum to Discourse

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vis1-0n:

--- Quote from: SilverSolder on April 03, 2020, 04:43:59 pm ---Couple the low information density with the apparent need to hide all functionality behind obscure swipes and finger gestures, and you get what we have today- phone apps so bad that I prefer to carry a small laptop in my backpack...

--- End quote ---

This is so frustrating as well. Flat design where the elements blend away, where there is no text labels, where there is no colourful 3D icons looking like a real world object.

It is fatiguing for me. I cannot recognise flat icons. I can recognise skeuomorphic icons. I have to figure out flat icons. My brain goes through a process at staring at a flat icon and interpreting it. This adds a few 100ms to every process and is fatiguing for me. Functionality is not obvious from the icon. and text labels are not aesthetically pleasing so they are often left out. I have to explore and learn each icons functions in a phone camera, instead of exploiting my past experiences gained from visual cues (which are more apparent in skeuomorphic icons). Or, you know, use of simple text labels.

It may look nice and all, and maybe all that research1 that the did say otherwise, but it really is physically tiring for me, and I am one who can stare at pages of ads automatically filtering them and picking out just the content.

1 simple example https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/a-design-with-all-caps/

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: vis1-0n on April 05, 2020, 08:23:35 am ---
--- Quote from: SilverSolder on April 03, 2020, 04:43:59 pm ---Couple the low information density with the apparent need to hide all functionality behind obscure swipes and finger gestures, and you get what we have today- phone apps so bad that I prefer to carry a small laptop in my backpack...

--- End quote ---

This is so frustrating as well. Flat design where the elements blend away, where there is no text labels, where there is no colourful 3D icons looking like a real world object.

It is fatiguing for me. I cannot recognise flat icons. I can recognise skeuomorphic icons. I have to figure out flat icons. My brain goes through a process at staring at a flat icon and interpreting it. This adds a few 100ms to every process and is fatiguing for me. Functionality is not obvious from the icon. and text labels are not aesthetically pleasing so they are often left out. I have to explore and learn each icons functions in a phone camera, instead of exploiting my past experiences gained from visual cues (which are more apparent in skeuomorphic icons). Or, you know, use of simple text labels.

It may look nice and all, and maybe all that research1 that the did say otherwise, but it really is physically tiring for me, and I am one who can stare at pages of ads automatically filtering them and picking out just the content.

1 simple example https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/a-design-with-all-caps/

--- End quote ---

I'm not a fan of skeuomorphic design, but flatty design is equally bad in the other direction.

Those of us with a memory can remember when all GUIs were flat, and the significant usability benefits when the "3D" Motif widgets were introduced. Instantly you could see what you could press, and whether or not it was pressed. Nirvana.

Siwastaja:
Yes, the UIs saw huge advances in late 1980's to early 1990's, and all the user experience problems were largely solved somewhere maybe 1992: instead of drawing a four-line box in a 1-bit color space, draw a filled box plus another filled box as a shadow, on a multi-color (more than two colors!) display. F***ing amazing!

Now we are back to the 1980's.

SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on April 05, 2020, 10:08:47 am ---Those of us with a memory can remember when all GUIs were flat, and the significant usability benefits when the "3D" Motif widgets were introduced. Instantly you could see what you could press, and whether or not it was pressed. Nirvana.

--- End quote ---

Yep. Widgets with 3D effects (illusion of depth) increased usability in a tremendous way. Those effects give simple visual cues that almost anyone, even without prior computing experience, can understand.

Flat design bullshit, OTOH, is terribly user-unfriendly. It may look "cleaner" to some (just a matter of taste though), but that's about it. Who fricking cares about some UI looking ultra-clean if you can't figure it out? It's like we've traded usability for pure looks. The computer-friendliness (less resources used?) is a bullshit argument; giving depth effects to widgets doesn't even require using any kind of 3D acceleration. But even if it were a valid argument in some cases, that would just mean ignoring usability just for the sake of technical reasons that weren't even a problem 30 years ago. Dang.

Anyway, this is a fad that will pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design

peter-h:
I am an admin on a European forum (aviation related) which runs on custom software, written in Ruby on Rails. When the other guy, who wrote it, wanted to move on (due to getting busy elsewhere) I was offered the options of

1) having the whole forum moved to a server under my control, or
2) having the database ported to another forum package, and after looking at some, Discourse was evaluated

Discourse had various problems. The main one was poor admin facilities. One of the things I do fairly often is move posts from one thread to another e.g. when somebody starts a duplicate thread. This is a part of trying to create a good long term information resource, without trying to create maximum traffic (we are donation funded; no adverts). Discourse can't do that. Well, it can but they don't appear chronologically at the destination; they just get chucked in at the end of the destination thread.

The plus of Discourse (I see also posted early on here by what appears the site owner) is that it is good for phone users. IOW, it is more "mobile friendly" than the older style (e.g. PHPBB) forums. That is relevant because

- google ranks "mobile friendly" sites higher
- a large % of people live their lives entirely on a phone (on my site it is around 50%, and on non tech sites it might be 90%)

BUT (and this is a huge BUT) the people who make useful contributions are almost never writing on a phone! Why? Because it is so painful. They are using a laptop or a PC, or possibly a tablet with a bluetooth keyboard. And yes they are nowadays a minority, but if you are trying to create and maintain an informative forum (and EEVblog certainly is that) you need to focus on these great contributors. Going for the "live on a phone" community just produces a forum which fills up with banal one-liners (i.e. like most of the internet).

I recently spoke to a guy in the US who runs maybe 100 forums. He bought them up over years, put them on his own platform, stuck some adverts around them, and just runs them as admin. Mostly with the original mods, too... But his business is in a long decline. Traditional web based forums are in a decline. A lot of clicks are being lost to other, more "phone friendly" social media.

This is worrying a lot of people who run forums.

What has changed over the last maybe 5 years is that the “one line tossing” activity (posters who toss in one-liners comprising mostly of drivel, smart-ar*e comments, etc) has moved to the new social media channels, with facebook being the main one for older people (the young are deserting fb and are moving to twitter, instagram, etc). And most forums, across all subjects, are full of that stuff.

This is a real problem for a forum which relies on advertising for funding, because while these people may not have written much worth reading they did generate a lot of advert clicks.

Another real problem for relatively unmoderated forums is that “kicking and beating-up” threads generate way more clicks than polite threads, so they are stuck. If they choose to moderate, they will lose a lot of income, and they are losing income to the other channels anyway. So no forum which suffers from poor content is going to reduce its membership. This is not an issue at EEVblog because personal attacks are not tolerated, which is good (mine is the same).

What can be done? Probably nothing. One should stick with what one is doing really well and build on that. Not go for a phone-friendly forum because that will trash the site as an informative resource.

So I think EEVblog should stay like it is, because it is the present format which keeps the good contributors.

BTW the reason I didn't move my forum to PHPBB was partly because of security issues; PHP is a constant nightmare (open source + PHP!) and needs a full time skilled admin, which I am not and cannot afford to employ one. Ruby is more secure but is very expensive to enhance/change/maintain (it is a language which was all the rage 10-15 years ago and which now generates a nice income for those few who are good at it) whereas there is a lot more PHP expertise around. Discourse is also written in Ruby and the Discourse community is full of people who make a nice living porting existing forum databases to Discourse. I don't suppose a shortage of server admin skills is an issue for EEVblog however, but you have to be aware that going to Ruby is not going to make your life easier. I went for option 1) above because the existing Ruby software was quite solid and if I went to another forum platform - even a proven one - I would be throwing money at people to do mods and such. But all future work (add-ons etc) is being done in PHP.

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