General > General Technical Chat
Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
EPAIII:
I haven’t used a real one, or don’t know how to use it?
I have used, well TRIED to use, a Hakko, which I understood is a respected brand. Perhaps it's not. But I found that I spent far more time clearing if of bits of extracted solder than actually removing solder with it. And, no matter how I used it, there was always some residual solder after the extraction. I did not observe any greater volume of air being sucked in when I triggered it and after a second or two of suction the tip would cool to the point where the solder solidified and would not melt again until the vacuum was turned off. I did try wiggling the part for that second or two but that did not improve the removal by much.
Perhaps the Pace is better. I don't know as I have not used one. If it works for you, then by all means, stick to it with my blessing.
Anyway, our OP is interested in inexpensive methods. I rather doubt that he will buy either a Pace or a Hakko or any other de-soldering station in that price range. A really good, high end, piston style solder sucker costs around $20. I have been using this brand for over 50 years and they are, IMHO, the best.
https://www.tequipment.net/Edsyn/DS017/Desoldering-Irons/?Source=googleshopping&/?utm_content=Soldapullt&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Shopping&utm_source=Bing_Yahoo&utm_medium=cpc&msclkid=45ac84dfbea11a52cf0ae7de76a8418d
Properly applied they remove at least 99% of the solder in a thru hole on a PCB. I have seen other brands that are very similar in size and action.
There seems to be a rash of smaller ones on the market today. They use a smaller volume and a smaller spring. Therefore they have a weaker action. I have tried using some of the smaller ones and do not recommend them. I can easily understand how your Pace with a vacuum pump may be better than them.
"Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components...". This requires a longer time that the plated hole is subjected to the high temperature. I have seen PCBs where that heat for a longer time is almost a complete guarantee that the foil will be lifted from the board. Were they a poor PCB? Of course they were. But they were made by a major manufacturer and had to be repaired so there was no choice. The heat and fast suck of a piston style solder sucker was the way to go to prevent that damage. At least on the first repair: after that all bets were off.
--- Quote from: tooki on August 20, 2022, 02:53:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 20, 2022, 09:18:58 am ---Solder wick is not my first choice for removing old solder. I prefer the solder suckers. They are better than the wick or the vacuum pumps connected to the hollow tip of the iron. Why? Because the solder suckers apply a sudden and intense vacuum which removes the melted solder quickly. Vacuum pumps apply the vacuum over a longer period of time: sometimes that works and sometimes not. And solder wick depends on capillary action.
--- End quote ---
If you think a solder sucker is better than a continuous-vacuum desoldering system, then you haven’t used a real one, or don’t know how to use it. (And some, like Pace, do in fact create a sudden high vacuum before continuing with a lower continuous vacuum.) Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components from plated through-holes. Neither wick nor a solder sucker can clear the solder between a pin and the plated hole. Continuous vacuum does, because you suck out the molten solder and keep the pin moving while the continuous vacuum cools the pin and plated hole, preventing them from re-adhering to one another.
--- End quote ---
EPAIII:
And yet, after a dip in my tin of rosin flux and a quick wipe on a wet sponge, my tips are clean. And ready for use. Flux cleans metal. That is it's entire purpose. To clean the metal so that solder can adhere to it.
Been doing it for 50+ years and I still have and use the ORIGINAL tips on my Weller soldering station. Today they are still as good as new. So if there is any harm in it, I can not see it.
Please notice that NO ONE here is talking about an acid flux. Acid flux has absolutely no place in electronic or electric soldering. It should not even be on the same workbench.
--- Quote from: tooki on August 20, 2022, 03:00:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: Boris_yo on August 20, 2022, 11:57:55 am ---Can I clean soldering tip in rosin flux that is in a tin can instead of in tip tinner in a tin can?
--- End quote ---
No! Despite what EPAIII says, soldering flux isn’t intended for cleaning your tip at all. (And note that tip tinner is very harsh, and should only be used on tips that resist being tinned with your regular solder.)
Just use good quality solder, whose flux core will allow the tip to tin properly.
As for the rest: stop fucking around with garbage supplies from China. Your sanity, and the components you intend to use, aren’t worth it. Even “expensive” solder is still cheap because you use so little of it. Who cares if a 500g reel costs $50 if it lasts you 5+ years? My favorite solder so far is Kester 63/37 with type 44 flux core.
And watch this soldering tutorial, if you understand it and follow it, your soldering will improve: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL926EC0F1F93C1837
--- End quote ---
Boris_yo:
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:25:05 am ---And yet, after a dip in my tin of rosin flux and a quick wipe on a wet sponge, my tips are clean. And ready for use. Flux cleans metal. That is it's entire purpose. To clean the metal so that solder can adhere to it.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: EPAIII ---Please notice that NO ONE here is talking about an acid flux. Acid flux has absolutely no place in electronic or electric soldering. It should not even be on the same workbench.
--- End quote ---
Okay. I will look for rosin flux free of mineral acid and free of chloride. I will skip tip tinner since it can be harsh on non-plated tip.
tooki:
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---I haven’t used a real one, or don’t know how to use it?
I have used, well TRIED to use, a Hakko, which I understood is a respected brand.
--- End quote ---
Hakko is a real one, so I'm gonna go with "don't know how to use it". Bear in mind that correct technique is required and isn't necessarily obvious, and takes practice to get right. Desoldering is also just plain a more fickle process, and part of doing it right is recognizing right away that additional help is needed, such as supplemental heat.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---Perhaps it's not. But I found that I spent far more time clearing if of bits of extracted solder than actually removing solder with it. And, no matter how I used it, there was always some residual solder after the extraction.
--- End quote ---
There's no question that desoldering irons are needy little divas that demand careful ongoing care and maintenance. But treated well, they perform very well.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---I did not observe any greater volume of air being sucked in when I triggered it and after a second or two of suction the tip would cool to the point where the solder solidified and would not melt again until the vacuum was turned off. I did try wiggling the part for that second or two but that did not improve the removal by much.
--- End quote ---
Then the technique wasn't right. When done properly, the joint is completely molten before suction is applied. You start moving the pin, when it's completely loose (indicating complete melt) you trigger the vacuum, and the initial rush is what sucks away all the solder. Then you keep moving for a second or two for the cool air to cool the joint down, preventing readhesion. Compared to not moving the pin around, it should be a dramatic difference: with movement, the pin should be completely free, and the component should just fall out when all the pins are done.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---Perhaps the Pace is better. I don't know as I have not used one. If it works for you, then by all means, stick to it with my blessing.
--- End quote ---
I haven't used a ton of desoldering system brands myself yet: Weller, Pace, Den-On and Ersa. Of those, the Pace and Den-On have performed the best.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---Anyway, our OP is interested in inexpensive methods. I rather doubt that he will buy either a Pace or a Hakko or any other de-soldering station in that price range. A really good, high end, piston style solder sucker costs around $20. I have been using this brand for over 50 years and they are, IMHO, the best.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. I just think it's important to understand the limitations of solder suckers on plated through-holes, which nowadays are nearly universal. Non-plated through hole is easy. Plated is not.
I agree that the Edsyn solder suckers are the best. Though I also have had good results with my tiny Engineer one, which performs better than expected because the silicone tip, which can form a much better seal around the pin, prevents most of the suction going to waste, so to speak.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---"Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components...".
--- End quote ---
You snipped off the most important part of that sentence, which makes me think you didn't take note of it: I said "Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components from plated through-holes." Emphasis on the "plated". On non-plated holes, where you have a pad one one or both sides, but the hole itself has no copper cladding, a solder sucker works well. But on plated holes, after using a solder sucker, it's almost inevitable to have a tiny meniscus of solder keeping the pin adhered to the side of the hole. Unless the pin was perfectly centered in the hole when it was soldered, and the solder sucker is able to overcome residual capillary action, you will still end up with a solder bridge to the pin. And if the pin is snug against one side of the hole wall, which is very common, then it's going to remain adhered.
The motion of proper continuous-vacuum desoldering ensures the pin can't remain adhered.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---This requires a longer time that the plated hole is subjected to the high temperature.
--- End quote ---
Slightly. But it ensures you're not later fighting an only partly-desoldered pin. And we're still only talking seconds. If a joint refuses to budge within 3 seconds, you abort, regroup, and first ensure you had proper thermal contact (people are AWFUL about forgetting to tin their desoldering iron tips!) and figure out how to add supplementary heat, like hot air, a preheater, or a soldering iron from the other side, so that you can then achieve a full melt within a few seconds.
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---I have seen PCBs where that heat for a longer time is almost a complete guarantee that the foil will be lifted from the board. Were they a poor PCB?
--- End quote ---
That can happen with top-quality boards if they're overheated or if pressure is applied while at soldering temperatures. Again, proper technique...
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:15:18 am ---Of course they were. But they were made by a major manufacturer and had to be repaired so there was no choice. The heat and fast suck of a piston style solder sucker was the way to go to prevent that damage.
--- End quote ---
Proper technique, man... no matter which tool you use, you have to use proper technique. You can mess up a board with a desoldering iron, and you can mess up a board when desoldering with a solder sucker. (In the former, by applying heat for too long, or applying pressure while hot. In the latter, by applying force to the board after the sucker fails to completely free a pin. I've seen both.)
In summary, your reply really leads me to believe you don't know proper technique for a desoldering iron. (You are not alone in this.)
Watch this ancient, but extremely informative video from Pace. All of it is useful, but Part 5 (17:00-22:22) is the key method: https://youtu.be/IqE1KA0OAnM?t=1022
tooki:
--- Quote from: EPAIII on August 21, 2022, 06:25:05 am ---And yet, after a dip in my tin of rosin flux and a quick wipe on a wet sponge, my tips are clean. And ready for use. Flux cleans metal. That is it's entire purpose. To clean the metal so that solder can adhere to it.
Been doing it for 50+ years and I still have and use the ORIGINAL tips on my Weller soldering station. Today they are still as good as new. So if there is any harm in it, I can not see it.
--- End quote ---
Dipping into the flux is inferior to tinning with flux-core solder for three reasons:
1. it harms the flux.
2. it results in excess flux residues on the tip.
3. it doesn't "flush" away old solder. The solder on the tip gets oxidized from being heated, but also gets contaminated with dissolved copper, gold, etc from the joints. (Especially in rework.) Flushing with fresh solder eliminates that.
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