Author Topic: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit  (Read 4426 times)

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Offline EPAIII

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2022, 09:32:29 am »
Well, I guess I have been put in my place. Nothing there that anyone could ever argue with. NOTHING at all!



I haven’t used a real one, or don’t know how to use it?

I have used, well TRIED to use, a Hakko, which I understood is a respected brand.
Hakko is a real one, so I'm gonna go with "don't know how to use it". Bear in mind that correct technique is required and isn't necessarily obvious, and takes practice to get right. Desoldering is also just plain a more fickle process, and part of doing it right is recognizing right away that additional help is needed, such as supplemental heat.


Perhaps it's not. But I found that I spent far more time clearing if of bits of extracted solder than actually removing solder with it. And, no matter how I used it, there was always some residual solder after the extraction.
There's no question that desoldering irons are needy little divas that demand careful ongoing care and maintenance. But treated well, they perform very well.

I did not observe any greater volume of air being sucked in when I triggered it and after a second or two of suction the tip would cool to the point where the solder solidified and would not melt again until the vacuum was turned off. I did try wiggling the part for that second or two but that did not improve the removal by much.
Then the technique wasn't right. When done properly, the joint is completely molten before suction is applied. You start moving the pin, when it's completely loose (indicating complete melt) you trigger the vacuum, and the initial rush is what sucks away all the solder. Then you keep moving for a second or two for the cool air to cool the joint down, preventing readhesion. Compared to not moving the pin around, it should be a dramatic difference: with movement, the pin should be completely free, and the component should just fall out when all the pins are done.

Perhaps the Pace is better. I don't know as I have not used one. If it works for you, then by all means, stick to it with my blessing.
I haven't used a ton of desoldering system brands myself yet: Weller, Pace, Den-On and Ersa. Of those, the Pace and Den-On have performed the best.

Anyway, our OP is interested in inexpensive methods. I rather doubt that he will buy either a Pace or a Hakko or any other de-soldering station in that price range. A really good, high end, piston style solder sucker costs around $20. I have been using this brand for over 50 years and they are, IMHO, the best.
Agreed. I just think it's important to understand the limitations of solder suckers on plated through-holes, which nowadays are nearly universal. Non-plated through hole is easy. Plated is not.

I agree that the Edsyn solder suckers are the best. Though I also have had good results with my tiny Engineer one, which performs better than expected because the silicone tip, which can form a much better seal around the pin, prevents most of the suction going to waste, so to speak.

"Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components...".
You snipped off the most important part of that sentence, which makes me think you didn't take note of it: I said "Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components from plated through-holes." Emphasis on the "plated". On non-plated holes, where you have a pad one one or both sides, but the hole itself has no copper cladding, a solder sucker works well. But on plated holes, after using a solder sucker, it's almost inevitable to have a tiny meniscus of solder keeping the pin adhered to the side of the hole. Unless the pin was perfectly centered in the hole when it was soldered, and the solder sucker is able to overcome residual capillary action, you will still end up with a solder bridge to the pin. And if the pin is snug against one side of the hole wall, which is very common, then it's going to remain adhered.

The motion of proper continuous-vacuum desoldering ensures the pin can't remain adhered.

This requires a longer time that the plated hole is subjected to the high temperature.
Slightly. But it ensures you're not later fighting an only partly-desoldered pin. And we're still only talking seconds. If a joint refuses to budge within 3 seconds, you abort, regroup, and first ensure you had proper thermal contact (people are AWFUL about forgetting to tin their desoldering iron tips!) and figure out how to add supplementary heat, like hot air, a preheater, or a soldering iron from the other side, so that you can then achieve a full melt within a few seconds.

I have seen PCBs where that heat for a longer time is almost a complete guarantee that the foil will be lifted from the board. Were they a poor PCB?
That can happen with top-quality boards if they're overheated or if pressure is applied while at soldering temperatures. Again, proper technique...

Of course they were. But they were made by a major manufacturer and had to be repaired so there was no choice. The heat and fast suck of a piston style solder sucker was the way to go to prevent that damage.
Proper technique, man... no matter which tool you use, you have to use proper technique. You can mess up a board with a desoldering iron, and you can mess up a board when desoldering with a solder sucker. (In the former, by applying heat for too long, or applying pressure while hot. In the latter, by applying force to the board after the sucker fails to completely free a pin. I've seen both.)

In summary, your reply really leads me to believe you don't know proper technique for a desoldering iron. (You are not alone in this.)

Watch this ancient, but extremely informative video from Pace. All of it is useful, but Part 5 (17:00-22:22) is the key method: [url]https://youtu.be/IqE1KA0OAnM?t=1022[/url]
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2022, 10:09:47 am »
Well, I guess I have been put in my place. Nothing there that anyone could ever argue with. NOTHING at all!
Or you could try to learn something… Or if you think I’m actually wrong, explain your position.
 

Offline Boris_yoTopic starter

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2022, 04:37:14 am »
Quote from: tooki
Given that Chinese vendors have proven themselves readily willing to cheat the ratings (by buying positive reviews or by simply fraudulently taking over an old listing for some unrelated, but positively rated, product), I wouldn’t trust Amazon reviews for Chinese items farther than I can spit. :(

Where did you learn about vendors taking over the listing thing? That's a predatory practice. How can these vendors be relied on? It seems freedom of speech is becoming a problem on Amazon and the only reliable reviews are negative because positive reviews are mostly fake news.

I wanted to look at 1-4 star reviews of one "brand" but there were none. Only ratings. Feels shady to me. I don't know if there were actually reviews that were suppressed and only ratings remained. Then I looked at another where one review of many expressed concerns about materials used and product being imported having no contact on the packaging because if something happens there will be no information to provide to poison control center in case of emergency. Another review said that when breathed in head feels odd.

Are websites like Digikey and Farnell reliable? I find shopping interface there a bit complex and I never ordered from them.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 04:39:17 am by Boris_yo »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2022, 06:20:45 am »
Quote from: tooki
Given that Chinese vendors have proven themselves readily willing to cheat the ratings (by buying positive reviews or by simply fraudulently taking over an old listing for some unrelated, but positively rated, product), I wouldn’t trust Amazon reviews for Chinese items farther than I can spit. :(

Where did you learn about vendors taking over the listing thing? That's a predatory practice. How can these vendors be relied on?
I don’t remember where I first read about it, but it’s been widely reported in the media.

Here’s some decent overviews I found quickly:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/29/20837359/amazon-basics-fake-sellers-imposters-third-party-marketplace
https://www.ecomcrew.com/chinese-sellers-manipulating-amazon/

Yes, it’s absolutely predatory.

How can they be relied on? They can’t. And even worse, they ruin it for legitimate vendors, too!!!

Are websites like Digikey and Farnell reliable? I find shopping interface there a bit complex and I never ordered from them.
Yes, they’re reputable. FYI, for Texas Instruments parts, Digi-Key and Mouser are the only worldwide distributors.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2022, 06:58:25 am »
Are websites like Digikey and Farnell reliable? I find shopping interface there a bit complex and I never ordered from them.

They are among the oldest and most reputable component sellers around. I've been ordering from Digikey since I was a kid in the 90s, Mouser is good too. What difficulty are you having with the shopping interface? It's a simple parametric search.
 
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2022, 07:28:30 am »
I first started getting Digi Key catalogs when I began playing with electronics in the mid-late 70s.  Back then they were the size of a very thin magazine.  The last printed catalog I received was thicker than a phone book.  Mouser has been around just as long.  Both are very reputable vendors, I've been using them off and on for 40+ years, and used them almost exclusively for both work and hobby purchases for the past 25 years.

Just order a roll of 63/37 Kester 44 from one of them and be done with it.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline EPAIII

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2022, 11:03:26 am »
I have no desire to get into a big, long argument over this. I thought the purpose of this thread was to help the OP who asked a question and I was offering what I had.

You have your techniques and I have mine. You have your experience and I have mine. I do not want to dispute that yours work for you. And I certainly do not want to tell you that there is only one way of doing something and you are not doing it right. Can't you grant me the same? And let the OP and others who read this pick and choose and experiment with one, the other, or some combination of both. Or other ideas posted here. Who knows, they may actually find something that works better than any advise posted here. And then he/they can share it with all of us. There's more than one way to build a mouse trap.

I have learned things from this thread. I have learned a great amount from this board and from others I have participated on. I hope you have too. 



Well, I guess I have been put in my place. Nothing there that anyone could ever argue with. NOTHING at all!
Or you could try to learn something… Or if you think I’m actually wrong, explain your position.
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Offline Boris_yoTopic starter

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2022, 02:06:47 pm »
I will be using this solder and solder flux paste from China which according to AndyBeez is used for a single part repair but I will use it for removing through-hole soldered mouse switches.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 02:10:32 pm by Boris_yo »
 

Offline EPAIII

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2022, 08:06:19 am »
Well, others here may jump on my opinion again, but for the most part I see no reason for using flux when removing or unsoldering parts. You just heat the joint, if it is a through-hole component you use either vacuum or solder wick to remove as much of the old solder as you can, and then you remove the part.

Flux is a cleaning agent which is used to remove any oxidation or other undesirable chemical which is on the surface of the parts and which would prevent the solder from attaching to that surface. Sometimes the old solder will not melt when the iron is brought into contact. In those cases applying a small amount of rosin core solder between the iron and the old solder will allow the rosin flux to clean the old solder and the small drop of fresh solder will provide a good path for the heat transfer. All of this should only take two to three seconds. If heat has been applied for over five seconds, STOP and look for the reason why. Just applying heat to a PCB will eventually cause the foil to de-laminate from the board and you will have a bigger repair job than you started with.

On the idea of cleaning the soldering iron tip with a dip into a paste style flux, perhaps I did not give enough detail. I find that I can run on and on so I try to keep my posts as short as possible. What I do is first dip the hot iron in the flux for a few seconds (2-5 seconds). Then I will finish cleaning it by using one of the pads of metal ribbons that are sold for this purpose. Those pads are like the scouring pads used to clean pots and pans but with larger sized brass ribbons.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Weller/T0051384099?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtyU1cDF2RqUH2NFvQyI8sgys%252BG5vvqc0M%3D

This, plus the heat of the iron does a very nice job of cleaning the iron's tip. Then a small amount of rosin core solder is applied and it immediately wets to the tip, covering it so it is ready for use. I do this immediately before I am going to use the iron/tip. But I only do it once in a work session, if that much: I do it only when it is needed.



I will be using this solder and solder flux paste from China which according to AndyBeez is used for a single part repair but I will use it for removing through-hole soldered mouse switches.
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Offline EPAIII

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2022, 08:41:17 am »
You keep harping on my improper technique. I would like to see a video of just how you remove a 16 pin DIP IC from a plated hole PCB by use of the pin wiggling technique. NO EDITS, of course! 

Personally, when doing that I prefer to use the large size solder sucker tool to quickly remove most of the solder AND THEN heat each pad (only the pad, not the pin) for a few seconds while using a small screwdriver or other tool to move the pin toward the center of the hole. Remove the heat and let it cool before taking the screwdriver away. That breaks any small amount of solder film left behind.

The vacuum iron leaves no place for any other tools to wiggle the pin. If you try to wiggle the pin with the vacuum iron, because of the lower vacuum pressure you wind up with a much larger amount of residual solder bridging from the pin to the side of the hole and when you remove the iron, the pin just snaps back to the side of the hole just before the molten solder freezes. Then you need to add more solder and try again. But then, of course, I am doing it wrong. So I want to see that video. NO EDITS! OLD IC with OLD SOLDER on plated holes and complete removal with no broken pins or lifted foil. Show me, please.

I think it would be interesting if we both were working in the same shop on the same type of boards. And we kept track of how long repairs took and how many boards needed repairs on the foil during our use of these techniques.

On that Pace video, it is a good video. But I noticed one thing when they were demonstrating de-soldering the DIP style ICs. While most DIP ICs have the pins angled to the outside, probably so they do not fall off the boards while the boards are being populated and moved around the factory to the wave soldering machine, the pins on the ICs in the film were straight down the middle of the holes. They only touched the plated holes at one or two small areas on their thin dimension. That would be on the component side of the board, just where they enter the holes. Two almost microscopic areas of contact. It is no wonder that the solder was completely removed with the suction. Unfortunately most, dare I say all of the ICs that I have had to remove had their pins angled to the outside so their flat side was in contact with the hole at the foil side of the board. That produced a much larger area where residual solder could remain. And DID remain. I call FOWL on that video!

PS: I did not deliberately try to misquote you. I guess I assumed that in today's world if you are having trouble with de-soldering components, they they are in plated holes. Non plated holes do make the job a lot easier. I believe we can agree on at least that.



I haven’t used a real one, or don’t know how to use it?

I have used, well TRIED to use, a Hakko, which I understood is a respected brand.
Hakko is a real one, so I'm gonna go with "don't know how to use it". Bear in mind that correct technique is required and isn't necessarily obvious, and takes practice to get right. Desoldering is also just plain a more fickle process, and part of doing it right is recognizing right away that additional help is needed, such as supplemental heat.


Perhaps it's not. But I found that I spent far more time clearing if of bits of extracted solder than actually removing solder with it. And, no matter how I used it, there was always some residual solder after the extraction.
There's no question that desoldering irons are needy little divas that demand careful ongoing care and maintenance. But treated well, they perform very well.

I did not observe any greater volume of air being sucked in when I triggered it and after a second or two of suction the tip would cool to the point where the solder solidified and would not melt again until the vacuum was turned off. I did try wiggling the part for that second or two but that did not improve the removal by much.
Then the technique wasn't right. When done properly, the joint is completely molten before suction is applied. You start moving the pin, when it's completely loose (indicating complete melt) you trigger the vacuum, and the initial rush is what sucks away all the solder. Then you keep moving for a second or two for the cool air to cool the joint down, preventing readhesion. Compared to not moving the pin around, it should be a dramatic difference: with movement, the pin should be completely free, and the component should just fall out when all the pins are done.

Perhaps the Pace is better. I don't know as I have not used one. If it works for you, then by all means, stick to it with my blessing.
I haven't used a ton of desoldering system brands myself yet: Weller, Pace, Den-On and Ersa. Of those, the Pace and Den-On have performed the best.

Anyway, our OP is interested in inexpensive methods. I rather doubt that he will buy either a Pace or a Hakko or any other de-soldering station in that price range. A really good, high end, piston style solder sucker costs around $20. I have been using this brand for over 50 years and they are, IMHO, the best.
Agreed. I just think it's important to understand the limitations of solder suckers on plated through-holes, which nowadays are nearly universal. Non-plated through hole is easy. Plated is not.

I agree that the Edsyn solder suckers are the best. Though I also have had good results with my tiny Engineer one, which performs better than expected because the silicone tip, which can form a much better seal around the pin, prevents most of the suction going to waste, so to speak.

"Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components...".
You snipped off the most important part of that sentence, which makes me think you didn't take note of it: I said "Continuous vacuum is really the only reliable, halfway gentle way to desolder through-hole components from plated through-holes." Emphasis on the "plated". On non-plated holes, where you have a pad one one or both sides, but the hole itself has no copper cladding, a solder sucker works well. But on plated holes, after using a solder sucker, it's almost inevitable to have a tiny meniscus of solder keeping the pin adhered to the side of the hole. Unless the pin was perfectly centered in the hole when it was soldered, and the solder sucker is able to overcome residual capillary action, you will still end up with a solder bridge to the pin. And if the pin is snug against one side of the hole wall, which is very common, then it's going to remain adhered.

The motion of proper continuous-vacuum desoldering ensures the pin can't remain adhered.

This requires a longer time that the plated hole is subjected to the high temperature.
Slightly. But it ensures you're not later fighting an only partly-desoldered pin. And we're still only talking seconds. If a joint refuses to budge within 3 seconds, you abort, regroup, and first ensure you had proper thermal contact (people are AWFUL about forgetting to tin their desoldering iron tips!) and figure out how to add supplementary heat, like hot air, a preheater, or a soldering iron from the other side, so that you can then achieve a full melt within a few seconds.

I have seen PCBs where that heat for a longer time is almost a complete guarantee that the foil will be lifted from the board. Were they a poor PCB?
That can happen with top-quality boards if they're overheated or if pressure is applied while at soldering temperatures. Again, proper technique...

Of course they were. But they were made by a major manufacturer and had to be repaired so there was no choice. The heat and fast suck of a piston style solder sucker was the way to go to prevent that damage.
Proper technique, man... no matter which tool you use, you have to use proper technique. You can mess up a board with a desoldering iron, and you can mess up a board when desoldering with a solder sucker. (In the former, by applying heat for too long, or applying pressure while hot. In the latter, by applying force to the board after the sucker fails to completely free a pin. I've seen both.)

In summary, your reply really leads me to believe you don't know proper technique for a desoldering iron. (You are not alone in this.)

Watch this ancient, but extremely informative video from Pace. All of it is useful, but Part 5 (17:00-22:22) is the key method: [url]https://youtu.be/IqE1KA0OAnM?t=1022[/url]
« Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 08:57:42 am by EPAIII »
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 

Offline mariush

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Re: Missing items to buy for my soldering kit
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2022, 08:58:27 am »
As you seem to be from Israel, you may get better prices or better shipping costs if you order from TME.eu  or from RS-Components (based in UK)

TME.EU has cheap flux, they sell flux from AG Termopasty which is a Polish company and TME.eu is also based in Poland so you know it's genuine and cheap.

Right now they don't have the version I use (Topnik 83) which was available in bottles of 50ml , 100ml and higher - the 50ml bottle was a few dollars. They only have some gel fluxes right now : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/topnik-zel_100/fluxes/ag-termopasty/art-agt-089/  or https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/topnik-zel_14/fluxes/ag-termopasty/art-agt-088/

They also have actual resin (colophony), you can get a 500g bag  for 5 eur : https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/kalafonia-500/fluxes/ag-termopasty/art-agt-094/
It's activated with 2.5% adipic acid.

You can make liquid flux by mixing 20-25% (or more) of such resin with up to 75% of isopropyl alcohol (high purity, 99% and above) and mix and shake until it's completely dissolved in the alcohol and you get Rosin Flux.
You can make it a bit stronger by adding up to 5% of benzoic acid  - https://www.amazon.com/Benzoic-Acid-12oz-55lb-Food-Grade/dp/B07W6JQ7X9?th=1 (this bag would be enough for liters of flux, it's too big, but was first i found on amazon)

It's basically the formula of the Topnik 83 according to the MSDS (<25% rosin, <75% ipa, <5% benzonic acid, <5% adipic acid) : https://www.tme.eu/Document/509fc31f9a9bb47ac8f62e9d1d1bdd58/FLUX-TK%2850_EN.pdf
 
You can also make those solid flux pucks out of colophony, it's just higher percentage of rosin and you can use those pucks to add flux to your desoldering braid ... just place braid on top of that puck and heat it up with your soldering iron until it "sinks" into the puck then drag the braid through the liquid-ish resin.
 


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