Author Topic: modern tech is better or is it?  (Read 8838 times)

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Offline strawberryTopic starter

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modern tech is better or is it?
« on: October 25, 2022, 04:06:21 pm »
so fragile
remembering days when you could play football against your TV
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2022, 07:26:09 pm »
Without even watching it: what's your point? A modern 4K or higher TV (or display) has better sharpness and far more resolution than was available at any price point during the CRT era, and do it at low cost and low weight. Yes, CRTs have some advantages (like any technology), but there's a reason we stopped making them.

The very, very best CRT displays ever made could be pushed (beyond their published specs) to 2560x1920 dpi at 75Hz, but individual pixels were quite blurry at that point. And don't forget that CRTs have convergence and focus errors, various geometric distortion, etc. The best ones kept those things under control quite well, but they couldn't reach the absolute perfect geometry of flat panels.

In other words: don't be a whiny curmudgeon.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2022, 07:32:10 pm »
I watched the video, the problem with those monitors is the crappy USB-C connector that is flimsy and ends up tearing traces off the board. That's just a case of poor engineering, using a connector lacking sufficient mechanical strength. Regardless of the connector type, it should have ears with screws to hold it to the housing and take the mechanical load off the PCB.
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2022, 09:20:04 pm »
I bought some pretty expensive CRT monitors back in the day. Every single one had geometric distortion to some degree. I was very happy when LCDs became affordable. I tossed my last CRT in the trash while it still worked because it was too heavy to move.  As I expected some enterprising dumpster diver snatched it before the next day.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2022, 09:30:07 pm »
Perfect geometry is about the only advantage of LCD other than the weight and bulk, especially early LCD. CRTs still have superior color and contrast ratio even today, OLED is arguably better though.
 

Online tom66

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2022, 09:50:51 pm »
Perfect geometry is about the only advantage of LCD other than the weight and bulk, especially early LCD. CRTs still have superior color and contrast ratio even today, OLED is arguably better though.

It really depends on what you're doing with the monitor.  For the vast, vast majority of people LCDs represent a substantial improvement:  I've got a pair of 4K monitors in front of me, they are light weight enough to hang on a simple arm bracket mounted to my desk and pixel perfect.  They also consume only about 20 watts each, don't buzz, whine or flicker, and will never burn in and will probably outlast most CRTs of moderate quality.  Yet they each cost less than even a 14" VGA CRT would have cost in equivalent terms today.  You can't convince me that isn't a superior technology.

As for LCDs having worse colour gamut, I'm not sure that's true.  CRTs may have had a wider colour gamut at one point, but LCDs can exceed 100% of sRGB or 80% Rec.2020 (with silly quantum-dot LED backlights), which CRTs couldn't dream of.  And for those who like infinite contrast ratio and have a big budget you can get OLED monitors now.  CRTs are properly obsolete and for good reason.

On reliability:  My pet feeling is we had growing pains around 2000-2010 as the merger of newer technologies and cost cutting reduced reliability.  However, electronics have generally increased in reliability since then.   The biggest problem is when they do fail they're much harder to repair due to parts availability & modern assembly methods.
 

Offline strawberryTopic starter

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2022, 10:56:38 pm »
50cm CRTs measured 20..30W (they rated 60W because of degausing coil) then LCDs cameout and all people is like my 80cm 100W LCD is much more energy efficient than that power hungry CRT.
same story for LEDs
I think some people dont have brains when they throw away money, possible reason why such design flaws go in production ( they dont do inhouse test for that connector )

CRTs worked for up to 10y before it was pointless to invest in any repair (depends on usage and environment )
new LCDs come in for repairs after 2..5y and after main board replacement they often come back again with same fault
 

Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2022, 11:34:52 pm »
My 20" Sony CRT monitor drew 80-120W depending on what was being displayed, I specifically remember measuring it. LCD monitors really were more efficient, although you're right that in the case of TVs people tended to have much larger ones.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2022, 11:38:39 pm »
Yes, big LCD TVs may draw more power than some CRTs.. some much, much smaller CRTs with much less crisp displays, which required three feet of depth.

Sometimes an increase in power consumption isn't a bad thing - I replaced the fluorescent lights in my kitchen with LEDs which draw slightly more power. They're two and a half times as bright as the fluorescents were at their maximum output, which they reached for all of about 10 minutes before beginning the constant and faster than you think process of becoming ever dimmer. And they don't have to warm up. And their power factor isn't at the intersection of stuff and all.
 

Offline eti

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2022, 12:13:36 am »
"Better"? Let me address the consumer realm stuff:
~~~

LOL. That's a VERY simplistic broad brush. Nope, it's utter SHITE, and for a few reasons, the most annoying of which is the perpetual re-hashing of something (re-inventing the wheel continually) and it being marketed as "Ground-breaking" and "Game-changing" <CRINGE>

Marketing bollocks is what makes us PERCEIVE all this crap as "better". I'd HAPPILY take the 70s or 80s, and barely ANY of this tech, but with the upside of more compassion, humanity, more community, people ACTUALLY VISITING AND TALKING AND LISTENING... and you can shove all this flimsy plastic "advanced" shite into landfill.

It's a load of old horse shit.
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2022, 04:17:53 am »
"Better"? Let me address the consumer realm stuff:
~~~

LOL. That's a VERY simplistic broad brush. Nope, it's utter SHITE, and for a few reasons, the most annoying of which is the perpetual re-hashing of something (re-inventing the wheel continually) and it being marketed as "Ground-breaking" and "Game-changing" <CRINGE>

Marketing bollocks is what makes us PERCEIVE all this crap as "better". I'd HAPPILY take the 70s or 80s, and barely ANY of this tech, but with the upside of more compassion, humanity, more community, people ACTUALLY VISITING AND TALKING AND LISTENING... and you can shove all this flimsy plastic "advanced" shite into landfill.

It's a load of old horse shit.

Having a bad day today?


As someone who has done professional 3D graphics and graphic design, I'll gladly take today's display tech over CRT.
As stated before, better geometry, pixel perfect, light weight, not taking up half my desk, and better colour accuracy and gamut make for a happier me.
My laptop has a 100% Adobe Gamut 4K panel and my external monitor is 100% sRGB. Both work great.
I just wish the external panel would get around to dying so I could upgrade to a 100% Adobe gamut screen there too.
Alas, I didn't buy cheap crap (it's an Eizo monitor) so I'll have to endure a good screen instead of a great screen... :D


Having said that, you can pry my collection of small and miniature sized CRT's from my cold dead fingers.....
CRT's are just cool to me somehow, LCD panels just lack a certain charm.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2022, 05:29:39 am »
This is all kind of beside the point anyway. The video (which it seems most people didn't watch) is covering a specific and apparently very common failure mode of that particular monitor. It's not that it's a bad looking display, or that high resolution LCDs are all junk, but that particular one frequently fails not long after the warranty is up and the repair is difficult and fiddly.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2022, 06:45:29 am »
Perfect geometry is about the only advantage of LCD other than the weight and bulk, especially early LCD. CRTs still have superior color and contrast ratio even today, OLED is arguably better though.
While I agree that OLED is on another level of awesomeness, I think only the very, very best CRTs actually exceed a decent LCD of today. We like to imagine that CRTs had perfect contrast, but they didn’t: there was some loss due to phosphor persistence, but above all, the phosphors weren’t black when off, but light gray. Most CRTs used some kind of gray contrast filter on the tube face to improve this, at the cost of reduced brightness. And the drive electronics often created a non-black background where actual black should be.

Where CRTs do shine, IMHO, is viewing angle. I hate the color shifts that happen with LCD and to a lesser extent with OLED. Plasma (what I still have in my living room) is almost as good as CRT in this regard.)
 
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Offline eti

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2022, 06:50:34 am »
Perfect geometry is about the only advantage of LCD other than the weight and bulk, especially early LCD. CRTs still have superior color and contrast ratio even today, OLED is arguably better though.
While I agree that OLED is on another level of awesomeness, I think only the very, very best CRTs actually exceed a decent LCD of today. We like to imagine that CRTs had perfect contrast, but they didn’t: there was some loss due to phosphor persistence, but above all, the phosphors weren’t black when off, but light gray. Most CRTs used some kind of gray contrast filter on the tube face to improve this, at the cost of reduced brightness. And the drive electronics often created a non-black background where actual black should be.

Where CRTs do shine, IMHO, is viewing angle. I hate the color shifts that happen with LCD and to a lesser extent with OLED. Plasma (what I still have in my living room) is almost as good as CRT in this regard.)

+1 for plasma here. Still using a 2007 model Panasonic, it’s not even 720p, and it’s SO clear and bright, it’s not even something I care about. I’m more interested in what I’m watching than it’s geometry.
 

Online tom66

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2022, 06:58:06 am »
While I agree that OLED is on another level of awesomeness, I think only the very, very best CRTs actually exceed a decent LCD of today. We like to imagine that CRTs had perfect contrast, but they didn’t: there was some loss due to phosphor persistence, but above all, the phosphors weren’t black when off, but light gray. Most CRTs used some kind of gray contrast filter on the tube face to improve this, at the cost of reduced brightness. And the drive electronics often created a non-black background where actual black should be.

Where CRTs do shine, IMHO, is viewing angle. I hate the color shifts that happen with LCD and to a lesser extent with OLED. Plasma (what I still have in my living room) is almost as good as CRT in this regard.)

Modern LCDs have gotten pretty good with viewing angle, even TN.  My Samsung panels have perfect (no colour distortion) viewing angle in the horizontal plane, and only very slight distortion in the vertical plane.  I've never seen an OLED show colour shift from viewing angle though?

The other issue with CRT contrast is internal tube blooming, so even if you managed to adjust the drive strength of the beam down to zero for zero input, a starry night would light up the back of the tube very visibly.  This effect is broadly similar to the LCD blooming effect that region-dimmed LED backlit panels exhibit.

In terms of reliability anecdotes:  I've got a 14 year old (2008) full-HD LCD panel with CCFL backlights I use as a spare monitor.  It had, from the very start of its life, cold solder joints on the IEC connector, and was found in a skip.  But I fixed those and it's been fine ever since.   The bathtub curve definitely applies for newer electronics too.

+1 for plasma, hanging on to my 2012 Panansonic FHD panel as the living-room TV, though it will be soon be replaced with an OLED.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 06:59:55 am by tom66 »
 

Offline strawberryTopic starter

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2022, 07:26:23 am »
IPS LCD is great on laptops and other professional display
TN probably they rotate viewing angle to more optimal (horizontal/45) to reduce artifacts, for IPS you need to view it in weird angle to see color distortion
for consumer LCD monitors they overdrive backlight to get more brightness/contrast ( reduced LED current by 1/3 and they look more natural)

good CRTs used cathode drive stabilizer for perfect blacks (loading changed flyback voltage?? some feedback sent to video amplifiers to correct that)

modified S7 cooling by replacing better thermal pad directly to CPU/PMIC and some copper tape to spread heat evenly (mod for bootup overheating) (they could have done it in factory)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2022, 07:27:04 am »
Where CRTs do shine, IMHO, is viewing angle. I hate the color shifts that happen with LCD and to a lesser extent with OLED. Plasma (what I still have in my living room) is almost as good as CRT in this regard.)

Plasma is fantastic, I wish it was not effectively dead. If somebody made a 19" 4x3 plasma display the arcade collectors would be happy.
 
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Offline Berni

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2022, 07:56:37 am »
Yep high quality CRTs can produce some very nice images. But the modern tech has surpassed them.

LCDs have gotten a lot better over the years. The response times are good enough now, they have improved in contrast and now have local dimming, the color reproduction got better, the viewing angles are much better now...etc So while a old CRT still beats a cheap LCD, it has a much tougher fight against a modern high quality LCD.

Plasma i don't really see the benefit these days now that OLED is more mature. Plasma indeed used to be the next step up from CRT by having even better image quality(similar pixels but in perfect geometry). But OLED is the step up from plasma. You get the same sort of contrast, color reproduction and viewing angle as a plasma. Yet at the same time being lighter, thinner, more power efficient, simpler to drive..etc It does still suffer from burn-in like plasma, but modern OLEDs have reduced the issue quite a lot.

Lots of people look back at CRTs with retro rose tinted glasses. Yes they looked absolutely amazing compared to the crappy LCDs we had back then. This is probably what gave people the impression of them being so great. Heck even i stuck with my CRT monitors until they finally died because they looked better than the LCD alternative. Compared to everything else they just looked better. However in all those years display technology has advanced a lot and we don't necessarily notice all the small incremental improvements done to it. But if you try looking at a CRT side by side to a OLED you will see how far we have gotten.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 07:58:38 am by Berni »
 

Online wraper

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2022, 08:02:11 am »
Perfect geometry is about the only advantage of LCD other than the weight and bulk, especially early LCD. CRTs still have superior color and contrast ratio even today, OLED is arguably better though.
CRT doesn't have a better color compared to wide gamut LCD. OLED and dual layer LCD has better contrast than any CRT. CRT can beat LCD in contrast only in dark, in lighted room contrast of CRT totally sucks. Also you forgot about resolution and possible display size.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 08:06:38 am by wraper »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2022, 09:59:33 am »
Modern LCDs have gotten pretty good with viewing angle, even TN.  My Samsung panels have perfect (no colour distortion) viewing angle in the horizontal plane, and only very slight distortion in the vertical plane.
They for sure are way better than they used to be. But there is still enough to cause slight visible shifts from edge to edge. I think most people don’t notice, but I do. I strongly suspect it’s not actually so much an issue of the panel itself anymore, but rather of the light-orienting films used behind them. They achieve brightness and efficiency by almost eliminating off-axis (or rather, outside of the defined arc) light.

I've never seen an OLED show colour shift from viewing angle though?
I don’t think I’ve noticed it on OLED televisions, but it’s quite pronounced on OLED phones. Really strong cyan shift in one direction. My iPhone SE has an LCD and simply loses brightness at extreme angles. The iPhones (and Samsungs) with OLED get a strong cyan shift. Really annoying to me.
 

Online tom66

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2022, 10:49:27 am »
Perhaps the effect on OLED phones is due to an antiglare filter.  OLED phones can't make the screen as bright, especially for long periods of time (try opening a web browser with a full white background on 100% brightness, after 30 seconds or so the screen will auto-dim as some thermal or integrated-time limit is reached) so they need an antiglare filter.  LCDs obviously wouldn't have this limit and you can make discrete LEDs run far brighter anyway.

I used to be a fan of OLEDs on phones, maybe my next phone will get an OLED, but they're more technical curiosities than anything.  I'm not convinced they make the overall "owning a phone" experience much better, unless you're into HDR video playback on a 5" screen.  They have a lot of downsides, such as much higher cost of repair if broken, burn in and worse battery life. 
 

Offline tooki

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2022, 03:25:36 pm »
Perhaps the effect on OLED phones is due to an antiglare filter.
Antiglare filter? Huh? No, phone OLEDs use antireflective (and oleophobic) coatings, not antiglare filters. I suspect it’s caused by the asymmetrical subpixel sizes (and shapes and positions) on OLED displays.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2022, 03:53:26 pm »
This is all kind of beside the point anyway. The video (which it seems most people didn't watch) is covering a specific and apparently very common failure mode of that particular monitor. It's not that it's a bad looking display, or that high resolution LCDs are all junk, but that particular one frequently fails not long after the warranty is up and the repair is difficult and fiddly.

Well done for the only comment in the thread relevant to the video  :-+

Everyone else is typing before they know what they're commenting on  :palm:
 

Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2022, 04:21:55 pm »
Lots of people look back at CRTs with retro rose tinted glasses. Yes they looked absolutely amazing compared to the crappy LCDs we had back then. This is probably what gave people the impression of them being so great. Heck even i stuck with my CRT monitors until they finally died because they looked better than the LCD alternative. Compared to everything else they just looked better. However in all those years display technology has advanced a lot and we don't necessarily notice all the small incremental improvements done to it. But if you try looking at a CRT side by side to a OLED you will see how far we have gotten.

I don't have to look back, I have lots of CRTs in service still. There's a nice 27" Sony XBR downstairs that is used mostly for the vintage console games. I have a collection of arcade cabinets that all have the original CRT monitors, I have a 15" Sony studio monitor that will do 1080i, it looks amazing. I also have several vintage computers with CRT monitors, nothing else out there looks quite like a good CRT. Lack of a fixed grid of pixels is inherently superior IMO when displaying multiple different resolutions. OLED does look fantastic, if the made a 4:3 OLED I think that would be a good CRT replacement in some applications.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: modern tech is better or is it?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2022, 04:25:29 pm »
Perhaps the effect on OLED phones is due to an antiglare filter.  OLED phones can't make the screen as bright, especially for long periods of time (try opening a web browser with a full white background on 100% brightness, after 30 seconds or so the screen will auto-dim as some thermal or integrated-time limit is reached) so they need an antiglare filter.  LCDs obviously wouldn't have this limit and you can make discrete LEDs run far brighter anyway.

I used to be a fan of OLEDs on phones, maybe my next phone will get an OLED, but they're more technical curiosities than anything.  I'm not convinced they make the overall "owning a phone" experience much better, unless you're into HDR video playback on a 5" screen.  They have a lot of downsides, such as much higher cost of repair if broken, burn in and worse battery life.

The thing that has kept me from getting an OLED phone is that they're all huge and/or have a notch or hole punch in the screen. I can't wait for the stupid obsession with eliminating bezels dies off, I absolutely cannot stand flaws in a display. A hole punch or notch is no different to me than a large cluster of bad pixels, and I think it's funny how fanboys will get behind those but nobody would accept a device that had a big clump of defective pixels.
 
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