Moronic EU propose to bring stage lighting under energy saving lighting rules

[janoc]

For housing, all you need to do is replacing bulbs with LED counterpart as old bulbs fail. For stage lighting, you'll need to replace most of the equipment, not just bulbs.

A serious question from someone who has seen the lighting gear but doesn't really work in the industry - why would you need to do that?

I understand that the older gear uses various triac and even resistor (the really old stuff) dimmers which cannot easily dim LEDs. OK, so the dimmer may need to be replaced too. However why e.g. a console and the wiring to it would need changing as is being claimed? It is all normally controlled by DMX, no? (assuming a reasonably modern setup, not someone moving  rheostats by hand to dim lights ...)

If the LED "bulb" has some sorts of "smarts" and needs digital control, I would only expect that there would be some sort of driver instead of the dimmer box talking to the console over DMX again.

Now I totally get that retrofitting an old fixture may not be cost effective (or even possible) and could cost more than getting a new one and that making the new hw work with the existing console/programs/whatever will be a pain but that's a different issue.



I also don't buy the arguments that the current LED-based (or other - e.g. halogen or something yet different) replacements are unusable because of different light output, fan noise, etc. Sure, could well be today - but that doesn't mean that will still be the case  in two years time too. Especially if this kind of legislation comes into power, creating a large market for better lamps. If it will still be like that towards the end of that transitional period, sure, then there will be a legitimate issue and a complaint to be made.

@dmills has a lot of good points why tungsten lamps are still used in these applications, thanks for the illuminating (pun intended) info.

[james_s]

A serious question from someone who has seen the lighting gear but doesn't really work in the industry - why would you need to do that?

Optics. Stage lighting lamps have precisely shaped and placed filaments that are critical to the optics in a fixture. No LED source can properly match this, you need a whole new fixture designed for the LED source.

It's just stupid anyway, stage lighting is an absolutely insignificant blip on the total energy consumption of any community. There are FAR bigger issues to look at. Given the shoestring budgets of a lot of theaters it's not a stretch to say that many of them will simply collapse and go away if this becomes law.

[rstofer]

How is this any different than the US banning Mercury Vapor lamps back in the mid '70s? 

There was the thought that cracked envelopes allowed UV to escape causing about 1 cancer death per year.  For that we changed out millions and millions of fixtures/ballasts/lamps.  Sure, we saved a lot of energy going to High Pressure Sodium (and even more if we picked the monochromatic Low Pressure Sodium) but that wasn't the driving force behind retrofitting - in the '70s.  It might be today...

Of course, the ban itself has been dragging on for 30 years or so.  I think the MV lamp is finally a thing of the past.

Here's a pretty nice comparison of High Pressure Sodium versus LED

http://www.stouchlighting.com/blog/led-vs-hps-lps-high-and-low-pressure-sodium

[wraper]

Not regulation, but around 2010 Greenpeace forced Apple to get rid of PVC in their products (world's third-most widely produced synthetic plastic polymer). As a result, Apple cables are going to landfill after 3-6 months of use unlike any other cheapest crap which lasts much longer. Well done, environment saved, my ass.

Which is just so convenient excuse for their crappy and very expensive cables. And complete BS as well too - the cables are simply poorly made, with insufficient strain relief, so they regularly fray and break at the connectors.

No other major manufacturer has these issues, even the "low end" ones like Dell or Nokia, despite also reducing/eliminating their PVC use. Apple's "disposable" cables are completely in line with their other design decisions towards unrepairable, straight-into-landfill hardware that breaks at the slightest disturbance.

Strain relief is not the issue and BTW Apple cables do have sort of strain relief. Also I have a lot of USB cables without strain relief and none of them breaks. So it's an issue with material used in outer layer of the cable as it's what always breaks first. As of eliminating PVC in electronics, it's stupid. PVC piping alone has so much PVC that cables would not come even close.

[janoc]

Optics. Stage lighting lamps have precisely shaped and placed filaments that are critical to the optics in a fixture. No LED source can properly match this, you need a whole new fixture designed for the LED source.

OK, but then those fixtures aren't *that* expensive. It still doesn't answer my question about the wiring and the lighting console, though.

It's just stupid anyway, stage lighting is an absolutely insignificant blip on the total energy consumption of any community. There are FAR bigger issues to look at. Given the shoestring budgets of a lot of theaters it's not a stretch to say that many of them will simply collapse and go away if this becomes law.

I think it is more about eliminating exceptions seen as not really justified than about saving energy on some larger scale from this. Those exceptions have also costs and open potential  loopholes. Yes, it is a stupid regulation. But claiming that world will collapse because of it is a going a bit overboard.

Concerning budgets - well, if this comes into a law, there will be several years of time during which the theaters can plan and perform the upgrades. If they stockpile on the bulbs, even longer. It is not like someone is telling them - you have to do this 1 million work until tomorrow or your shop will not be allowed to open. Even a small venue should be able to include it in their budgets like that, especially since they probably don't use so many fixtures in the first place.

The lack of good quality alternatives for tungsten bulbs is a lot more relevant issue there, IMO.

[janoc]

Strain relief is not the issue and BTW Apple cables do have sort of strain relief. Also I have a lot of USB cables without strain relief and none of them breaks. So it's an issue with material used in outer layer of the cable as it's what always breaks first. As of eliminating PVC in electronics, it's stupid. PVC piping alone has so much PVC that cables would not come even close.

The key is "sort of". If a cheap Chinese factory somewhere is able to make a cable that doesn't break, Apple's competitors that have to follow the same laws and rules are able to make cables that don't break, it is surely not because of PVC (or lack of it) in the cable sleeve/insulation that they break, is it?

That's a total red herring, sorry.

[james_s]

Yes they really are *that* expensive. When you might have a hundred or so fixtures at $400-$1200 each and you survive on a shoestring budget, replacing all of the lighting could absolutely bury many theaters. And all for what? An insignificant energy savings? What happens to all these high quality older instruments, we send them to the landfill? Sorry but this just seems like something crafted by one of those nanny types who absolutely have to have control over what someone else somewhere is doing. Bottom line is that someone who lacks any sort of expertise in theatrical lighting should have no part in legislating it. Really that applies to everything, and it seems to be all too common, lawmakers trying to legislate things they do not understand.

Regarding mercury vapor streetlighting, that was also misguided in my opinion, yes HPS is more efficient but in many cases 400W mercury lamps were replaced with 400W HPS lamps so zero energy savings. We got more light but it was ugly orange light that created a lot of glare rather than really lighting anything up, but there are two very significant factors here. One, there are many orders of magnitude more street lights than theatrical lights and they typically run all night long every night so any small savings becomes far more significant. Second, much of these replacements were paid for with taxpayer money which is practically an endless supply, or at least it is treated that way. Spending $10 Million replacing all the streetlights in a city is no problem, spending $60,000 replacing all the lighting in a small theater is a *huge* expense.

[wraper]

Strain relief is not the issue and BTW Apple cables do have sort of strain relief. Also I have a lot of USB cables without strain relief and none of them breaks. So it's an issue with material used in outer layer of the cable as it's what always breaks first. As of eliminating PVC in electronics, it's stupid. PVC piping alone has so much PVC that cables would not come even close.

The key is "sort of". If a cheap Chinese factory somewhere is able to make a cable that doesn't break, Apple's competitors that have to follow the same laws and rules are able to make cables that don't break, it is surely not because of PVC (or lack of it) in the cable sleeve/insulation that they break, is it?

That's a total red herring, sorry.

As I said, my micro USB and USB-C cables don't have strain relief at all and nothing breaks. Competitors use PVC insulation, that's the difference. There is no rule against using PVC in cables.

[janoc]

As I said, my micro USB and USB-C cables don't have strain relief at all and nothing breaks. Competitors use PVC insulation, that's the difference. There is no rule against using PVC in cables.

The strain relief sleeve on Apple cables is too thin and splits easily, after which the cable starts fraying around the connectors. The other common problem is that the outer insulation simply splits apart in places where the cable is being bent and the inner conductors wear against the synthetic rubber (or what is that thing Apple uses for the outer sleeve), even with normal use.

You say yourself that there is no rule against using PVC in cables (and you can make decent cable with other insulation than PVC too - certainly for the price Apple is selling them for) - so why are you trying to blame this on Greenpeace?

Here is an alternative explanation, from someone who claims to have actually worked for  Apple:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/hvuhg/apple_why/c1yuah6/

(tl;dr - classic Apple style decision making - design trumps engineering)

[b_force]

And seriously, this is again yet another "sky is falling" cry, with a petition to maintain the status quo - the same thing as when the original wolfram/tungsten bulbs were to be outlawed (or vacuum cleaners and what not). We are several years past that and - surprise - everyone survived and we are not back to candles.

I am not a fan of stupid regulation but I simply don't believe that it would be impossible to find suitable replacements for wolfram bulbs, relegating the current equipment to scrap or requiring expensive refits. Right now nobody makes them simply because there is no demand. Once there will be, I am sure halogen bulbs or dimmable LEDs outfitted with the right sockets will appear in no time, given the size of the market.

For housing, all you need to do is replacing bulbs with LED counterpart as old bulbs fail. For stage lighting, you'll need to replace most of the equipment, not just bulbs.

That's not true at all. 90% of the energy being used is because of the lights.
Well, it depends a little what type of venue you're talking about of course.
For exactly this reason you can't even sell the electronics (audio en light controllers) for being "efficient", since the light bulbs themselves just consume that much.
Like I said, with all the respect, but anno 2018 it's more than ridiculous to use old fashioned light bulbs anymore.
LED are just fine and looking fine, people who still think they are harsh and ugly have been living underneath a rock for the last few years.

On a personal level I also don't get it, when I was using old light bulbs it was about 40% of my energy bill.
With LED it went down to just about 15%, which is pretty significant per month.
Also a lot of older houses/hotels/hostels are very happy with it, since they have limited fuses available, so they don't blow up as many fuses in the winter.

[wraper]

You say yourself that there is no rule against using PVC in cables (and you can make decent cable with other insulation than PVC too - certainly for the price Apple is selling them for) - so why are you trying to blame this on Greenpeace?

Because there is nothing wrong with PVC to begin with. Replacements are not only less durable but are not inherently flame retardant and cause more harm to the environment as cannot be recycled unlike PVC. There is no good replacement for PVC. Even apple uses PVC power cords in Korea and India because replacements do not comply to legislation.
https://www.wireweb.de/wire-reports/pvc-free-cable-an-alternative-_33434_de/

PVC generates three times fewer greenhouse gases than the materials which could be used to replace it.

In 2014 alone, the programme recycled over 514,000 tonnes of PVC in total.

However, it soon became evident that the new cables were often not performing as well as those made of PVC. They broke more easily and lasted a shorter time, to the increasing annoyance of many consumers who, in November 2011, assembled and won a class-action lawsuit in the US against one of the market leaders.

Greenpiece is a stupid organisation, all about hype and not actual research and environment.

[wraper]

This cable without any strain relief survived more use than 99% of the cables will ever see.

[glarsson]

Greenpiece is a stupid organisation, all about hype and not actual research and environment.

So true. Even their ex-president, Patrick Moore, agrees with this statement.

[james_s]

That's not true at all. 90% of the energy being used is because of the lights.
Well, it depends a little what type of venue you're talking about of course.
For exactly this reason you can't even sell the electronics (audio en light controllers) for being "efficient", since the light bulbs themselves just consume that much.
Like I said, with all the respect, but anno 2018 it's more than ridiculous to use old fashioned light bulbs anymore.
LED are just fine and looking fine, people who still think they are harsh and ugly have been living underneath a rock for the last few years.

On a personal level I also don't get it, when I was using old light bulbs it was about 40% of my energy bill.
With LED it went down to just about 15%, which is pretty significant per month.
Also a lot of older houses/hotels/hostels are very happy with it, since they have limited fuses available, so they don't blow up as many fuses in the winter.

We're not talking about household light bulbs here, these are expensive and very specialized stage lighting instruments, you cannot simply replace the bulb with an LED and expect it to work. It's the same reason there are no legal LED retrofit bulbs for automotive headlights, the optical properties of the lamp are critical and LEDs require different optics.

[Bratster]

" It still doesn't answer my question about the wiring and the lighting console, though. "


A large theater that is currently using tungsten bulbs etc, will generally have their massive rack of dimmers located in room somewhere and then Mains power wiring running to every fixture or outlet for a fixture.

 So to replace that with LED fixtures you now have to replace your entire rack of dimmers with a breaker panel or modify the dimmer to be just non dim outputs. Then you have to run all new data cabling to the location of every fixture.

If the LED fixtures only have one control Channel then you probably wouldn't have to replace the mixing console. But if they have multiple control channels then you may very well have to. Again if you're using DMX,
 if not you may very well have an insanely expensive proprietary control system that wouldn't work with anything other than itself.

Also you'll probably need to invest in DMX Splitters and amplifiers to be able to reach all of the fixtures spread out across the theater where is before you only had to make it to the one dimmer room/ rack.
(If using dmx)

Then there is also the issue of smaller theaters that are still running analog controllers with ancient dimmers. At least in the US there's a lot more of that than you would think.
 I used to work at a theatrical lighting manufacturer, we would routinely get our products in for repair that have been running for 10-20plus years old analog stuff as well as newer DMX stuff, replace a few parts send it back out and it would go again.
We would also still get orders for some custom adapters to make other companies old dimmers from the 70s and 80s 90s compatible with new controllers. And this was all just in the last 10 years.

Not to mention the fact that as far as I know anyway LEDs still haven't been able to mimic the Fade to Black that standard light fixture can do. For a theater that is a huge deal.

Of course personally I absolutely hate incandescent bulbs and the like and am LED all the way. 5000k daylight.


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[Zero999]

I think they should focus on other things: what about all those inefficient, wasteful, antiquated audio amplifiers? Especially the class A value/tube ones! They should all be banned and replaced with class D amplifiers, with efficient swithed mode power supplies of course! The only place for glassware and even semiconductors on massive heatshinks is the museum.

I can see that being very unpopular, especially with the audiophool crowd, but it would probably safe more energy, than banning incandescent stage lighting.

[janoc]

Because there is nothing wrong with PVC to begin with. Replacements are not only less durable but are not inherently flame retardant and cause more harm to the environment as cannot be recycled unlike PVC. There is no good replacement for PVC. Even apple uses PVC power cords in Korea and India because replacements do not comply to legislation.

So? But that was Apple's choice - PVC is not banned to be used in cable insulation! Neither in Europe, nor in America, even that Greenpeace didn't make them to switch away from it, despite what you are trying to push here.

Absolutely nobody is preventing Apple from shipping PVC insulated cables, nor from reinforcing the parts that are most often wearing through.

Greenpiece is a stupid organisation, all about hype and not actual research and environment.

So, you are basically blaming Greenpeace for Apple's incompetence only because you don't like Greenpeace and not because they actually have anything to do with the poor design of those Apple branded cables?

Or I really don't get neither your reasoning nor point here. 

[james_s]

Can we take the Apple/cable stuff somewhere else please and stick to the topic at hand?

[janoc]

A large theater that is currently using tungsten bulbs etc, will generally have their massive rack of dimmers located in room somewhere and then Mains power wiring running to every fixture or outlet for a fixture.

Ah OK, thanks for explaining that. I have been under the assumption that it is more common to run the DMX lines near the lighting ramps and then have the dimmers nearby the lights to reduce the amount of cabling required, not in some remote room.

If the setup is as you describe, then yes, quite a bit of a wiring job could be required.

However, if someone invests into a totally proprietary system that works only with itself - then they pretty much have only themselves to blame.

[The Soulman]

LED theatre lighting are still not good enough to be a worthy replacement for the traditional lights.
Even with the "latest technologies" such as high frequency dimming, amber drift and the addition of lime green to the colour spectrum the result still
isn't on par (pun intended), regardless of cost. 
Interested in the technology's development I haven't left a trade-show impressed.

For show purposes (flashing colourful effect lights) LED is taking over HMI in a fast rate, the biggest force behind that is the size and weight benefit from LED and the lower cost.

Either way at the theatre I work (as a sound-engineer  ) the electricity bill is largely dominated by 24/7 systems such as the massive ventilation system and computers/servers with the accompanying air-conditioning.

[james_s]

Ah OK, thanks for explaining that. I have been under the assumption that it is more common to run the DMX lines near the lighting ramps and then have the dimmers nearby the lights to reduce the amount of cabling required, not in some remote room.

If the setup is as you describe, then yes, quite a bit of a wiring job could be required.

However, if someone invests into a totally proprietary system that works only with itself - then they pretty much have only themselves to blame.

Many of the systems in use were installed 40-80 years ago, some even older. DMX was not an option then, it's not as if these weird proprietary systems were installed last week, at the time they were put in they were state of the art.

[The Soulman]

I think they should focus on other things: what about all those inefficient, wasteful, antiquated audio amplifiers? Especially the class A value/tube ones! They should all be banned and replaced with class D amplifiers, with efficient swithed mode power supplies of course! The only place for glassware and even semiconductors on massive heatshinks is the museum.

I can see that being very unpopular, especially with the audiophool crowd, but it would probably safe more energy, than banning incandescent stage lighting.

Well....
Class-D amplifiers can be efficient near full power output and that is their main advantage, however typical use in a theatre is below 1% power output.
The used smps aren't build for efficiency around that power level, the class-d amplifiers we have idle with a draw of about 700 Watts each (times 50...) + aircon to remove the resulting heat. 

Really want to replace those (for various other reasons) with linear power supply class-H. 

[b_force]

I think they should focus on other things: what about all those inefficient, wasteful, antiquated audio amplifiers? Especially the class A value/tube ones! They should all be banned and replaced with class D amplifiers, with efficient swithed mode power supplies of course! The only place for glassware and even semiconductors on massive heatshinks is the museum.

I can see that being very unpopular, especially with the audiophool crowd, but it would probably safe more energy, than banning incandescent stage lighting.

For the record, most professional audio amplifiers have been Class-D types for MANY years.
However, the power usage of the stage lights and heating system is still using far more energy.

btw
No body gives a damn about those few audiophools with tube amplifiers.
That number is totally insignificant and not interesting, small market.
(the music industry however is a very different story)

But not to wake any sleeping angry dogs, but all these things are still nothing compared how some 'western countries' waste energy by the millions.

LED theatre lighting are still not good enough to be a worthy replacement for the traditional lights.

Are we engineers or not?
Seems like a nice challenge to me!!

[wraper]

LED theatre lighting are still not good enough to be a worthy replacement for the traditional lights.

Are we engineers or not?
Seems like a nice challenge to me!!

If target is wasting money without a good reason, then sure. Particularly for me, outcome is more important than running the hoops. I prefer applying minimum effort for maximum result, not the way around.

[james_s]

Audiophools with tube amplifiers and stage lighting are actually a good comparison, both are tiny tiny drops in the bucket. It would not surprise me if the overall global energy consumption from audiophool gear is significantly higher than that of theatrical lighting. There just are not very many theaters, and if you look at the energy consumption on lighting per audience member it's going to be even more insignificant.