Motherboards claiming more VRM phases by using extra inductors

[Back2Volts]

Because I am looking at replacing a 10 yr old computer, I have been studying the current status of the technology, read many posts and watched many videos.   The other day I run into a review pointing to a brand as best in VRMs.    This afternoon, just by chance I run into a comment about fake VRM phases and from there I googled this video.
Guess what brand is claiming the extra phases ?   The video is very long because the guy is very mad, but you can get the net of what he is saying in the first few minutes.    I have found it interesting...  seems to be a troubling move by the industry

[NiHaoMike]

At the end of the day, how well it handles load is all that matters. Start a stress test and take a few thermal images after letting it warm up for a few minutes. Get out the scope and measure the ripple if you really want some data for comparison. Could even get out the clamp meter to get an idea of efficiency as long as other variables are kept under control.

[magic]

It may still be a better VRM because more components is less resistance, if they are equally good. Less resistance is better efficiency and higher power capacity.
It will be worse than an 8ph design using the same components in terms of ripple. It may be as good as previous generation 8ph designs if they managed to double frequency.

Basically, what NiHaoMike says. Make tests or check out reviews if you want to know how it performs. That's why manufacturers of consumer computer components are notoriously reluctant to publish specs - they don't want laymen comparing things by numbers without understanding what they are doing.

[Back2Volts]

The point is that they are advertising twice the phases.   The performance consideration would have relevance if they where advertising "it performs as an eight phase VRM".    They did not say our fewer phases have lower effective resistance which makes them work as well.

What would about placing six spark plugs on top of a four cylinder engine and advertising it as a six cylinder.     It would be a lie no matter how much power the engine delivers.   The difference is that people are educated enough to know what a cylinder is, but not to know what a phase really is or does.

To me is a matter of honesty or lack of it.     

[David Hess]

It may still be a better VRM because more components is less resistance, if they are equally good. Less resistance is better efficiency and higher power capacity.

Or it may be equally good but less expensive to implement.

The cost of what Gigabyte did is greater demand on the input and output capacitors because of greater ripple current.  Offsetting this, twice (or 1.5 times) as many less expensive power MOSFETs and twice as many less expensive inductors were used and a less expensive controller.

But Gigabyte unambiguously lied.  These VRMs did not have the advertised number of phases.

[MrMobodies]

Interesting video and I watched it all the way.

When Gigabyte long ago started advertising their boards for gaming and decorating it accordingly along with the other manufacturers I stopped taking them seriously and it put me off. I just preferred them plain with an accurate description of what it can do. I don't mind a bit of decorations in the packaging but I find that over the top now and they state things that are not true.

[wraper]

Interesting video and I watched it all the way.

When Gigabyte long ago started advertising their boards for gaming and decorating it accordingly along with the other manufacturers I stopped taking them seriously and it put me off. I just preferred them plain with an accurate description of what it can do. I don't mind a bit of decorations in the packaging but I find that over the top now and they state things that are not true.

It's a plague which affected basically all manufacturers. Mumbo jumbo RGB dance lights and sorts of crap. Backplates on graphics cards without any thermal interface to PCB (some have it), basically shielding heat. Covers on motherboards, often called armor.

 

[MrMobodies]

I remember that board in the picture.

That's that Asus Sabertooth series that I read about in the past that had the tracers too near the cpu heatsink mounting holes and some of them got damaged when the screw was tightened too much?

The manufacturers then classed it as "Customer induced damage" when they were returned.

Edit:
It looks like many of them are doing that now.

I just found see attachment a Gigabyte Ultra Durable H310M S2P with the tracers right next to the right side of the heatink mounting holes.

Not very durable if you over tighten the screws and accidentally break the tracers underneath.

[thm_w]

I remember that board in the picture.

That's that Asus Sabertooth series that I read about in the past that had the tracers too near the cpu heatsink mounting holes and some of them got damaged when the screw was tightened too much?
The manufacturers then classed it as "Customer induced damage" when they were returned.

Intel spec is 4mm PTH and 6mm no route. It looks like they don't even meet the spec. Especially bad on the left side where its easy enough to push the traces further away.

The point is that they are advertising twice the phases.   The performance consideration would have relevance if they where advertising "it performs as an eight phase VRM".    They did not say our fewer phases have lower effective resistance which makes them work as well.

What would about placing six spark plugs on top of a four cylinder engine and advertising it as a six cylinder.     It would be a lie no matter how much power the engine delivers.   The difference is that people are educated enough to know what a cylinder is, but not to know what a phase really is or does.

To me is a matter of honesty or lack of it.   

Sure, your point is valid and interesting and they should be called out for it (as Nvidia has been in the past among other examples).
But it really has no direct relevance to users when deciding on which motherboard to go with. There are hundreds of other factors in play.

[NiHaoMike]

I remember that board in the picture.

That's that Asus Sabertooth series that I read about in the past that had the tracers too near the cpu heatsink mounting holes and some of them got damaged when the screw was tightened too much?

The manufacturers then classed it as "Customer induced damage" when they were returned.

Edit:
It looks like many of them are doing that now.

I just found see attachment a Gigabyte Ultra Durable H310M S2P with the tracers right next to the right side of the heatink mounting holes.

Not very durable if you over tighten the screws and accidentally break the tracers underneath.

It looks like a cheap patch would be some plastic washers glued over the holes.

It's a plague which affected basically all manufacturers. Mumbo jumbo RGB dance lights and sorts of crap. Backplates on graphics cards without any thermal interface to PCB (some have it), basically shielding heat. Covers on motherboards, often called armor.

 

Maybe they're trying to target those who don't like the look of nude PCBs.

[amyk]

Maybe they're trying to target those who don't like the look of nude PCBs.

In which case... in which case you put it inside a case.

It looks as stupid as those engine covers under the bonnet:

https://iedei.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/2010-lexus-ls460-sport-from-engine-view-picture.jpeg

This is more like it...
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/1970ChevroletCamaroZ28-engine.jpg

[MrMobodies]

Long ago I once had a Gigabyte 8PENXP and I thought that it wasn't exactly plain but it was decorated enough where they coloured all the slots, like the dimm slots to indicate what modules should go in if singular or a couple and they put a few fancy copper heatsinks and stickers and names over it.

I got to look at the marketing material and it'll be interesting to find out if there were any untrue claims but I think the DPS plug in board was there so you can adjust the voltages to work with the newer and older Socket 478 Pentium 4's at the time.


Edit:

It looks like a cheap patch would be some plastic washers glued over the holes.

For the prices they were going at I wouldn't want to bodge on some plastic washer and glue.

I might as well go and purchase an EATX server board kit/bundle than one of those.

I just did a search and they do it on some the EATX ones as well.

See attached Intel S3420GP.

[Circlotron]

It's a plague which affected basically all manufacturers. Mumbo jumbo RGB dance lights and sorts of crap. Backplates on graphics cards without any thermal interface to PCB (some have it), basically shielding heat. Covers on motherboards, often called armor.

Similar to what you see under the bonnet of a car nowadays. All this moulded plastic stuff hiding the real works.

[David Hess]

It's a plague which affected basically all manufacturers. Mumbo jumbo RGB dance lights and sorts of crap. Backplates on graphics cards without any thermal interface to PCB (some have it), basically shielding heat. Covers on motherboards, often called armor.

Similar to what you see under the bonnet of a car nowadays. All this moulded plastic stuff hiding the real works.

And computer cases - I do not want windows, I do want to be able to filter intake air and pressurize the case to keep dust out, I want lots of room, and I want lots of drive bays.  The flashy stuff just gets in the way.

[Rerouter]

If you want the BS kept a minimum, probably look at asrock, if you want none at all, look at supermicro,

The part i find the funniest is that a 4 layer PCB can be a marketing feature on some of the modern motherboards.

When your running tens to hundreds of various GHz or faster trancievers across 30cm of board area, being able to get away with 4 layers speaks wonders to how tolerant the trancievers and standards are.

[nctnico]

If you want the BS kept a minimum, probably look at asrock, if you want none at all, look at supermicro,

No, buy a professional workstation from HP or Dell. At least these have a real thermal design. The plastic which is in these is mostly air ducts to divert the air flow through the case along the hottest parts.

[wraper]

If you want the BS kept a minimum, probably look at asrock, if you want none at all, look at supermicro,

No, buy a professional workstation from HP or Dell. At least these have a real thermal design. The plastic which is in these is mostly air ducts to divert the air flow through the case along the hottest parts.

But you'll pay way more just to avoid those bells and whistles. Temperature still likely will be worse than in half decent custom build.

[magic]

No, buy a professional workstation from HP or Dell. At least these have a real thermal design.

Whenever I look at those things, they also have non-ATX motherboards and PSUs, implying you need to buy a new special snowflake case and PSU with every upgrade.
Thermal design isn't much of an issue for me. Intake at front bottom, exhaust at rear top, it works every time.

[nctnico]

If you want the BS kept a minimum, probably look at asrock, if you want none at all, look at supermicro,

No, buy a professional workstation from HP or Dell. At least these have a real thermal design. The plastic which is in these is mostly air ducts to divert the air flow through the case along the hottest parts.

But you'll pay way more just to avoid those bells and whistles. Temperature still likely will be worse than in half decent custom build.

With this statement I assume you've never taken a professional workstation apart. A 'custom build' still means using standard components and a case which aren't optimised for airflow or to even work together. Professional workstations are in a different league. This is a picture of the system I have:

There are 3 fans in the front and the PSU fans draw air through the lower drive bay. This system is whisper quiet and keeps temperatures well within the operational limits. These are the kind of systems you get 5 to 10 years of reliable operation from. But I don't care about the number of phases the VRM has though.

[wraper]

If you want the BS kept a minimum, probably look at asrock, if you want none at all, look at supermicro,

No, buy a professional workstation from HP or Dell. At least these have a real thermal design. The plastic which is in these is mostly air ducts to divert the air flow through the case along the hottest parts.

But you'll pay way more just to avoid those bells and whistles. Temperature still likely will be worse than in half decent custom build.

With this statement I assume you've never taken a professional workstation apart. A 'custom build' still means using standard components and a case which aren't optimised for airflow or to even work together. Professional workstations are in a different league. This is a picture of the system I have:
There are 3 fans in the front and the PSU fans draw air through the lower drive bay. This system is whisper quiet and keeps temperatures well within the operational limits. These are the kind of systems you get 5 to 10 years of reliable operation from. But I don't care about the number of phases the VRM has though.

I've taken apart. And CPU cooler most likely will be way worse than half decent cooler for custom built. With in/out fans there won't be hot air accumulation either. The only thing you'll achieve with air ducts is using less fan count to do the same job.
BTW GPU on the picture has garbage cooling.

[nctnico]

This isn't a gaming rig so the graphics card isn't an high-end one and therefore doesn't need much cooling. In my system I have an even smaller/lower spec graphics card which doesn't need the external 12V power cable.

And sure ducting does a better job of cooling and needing less fans makes the system more quiet (and accumulate less dust). Before this system I had a standard case and one of the problems with it was that de CPU would overheat after a while due to accumation of dust in the CPU heatsink. Positive or negative pressure didn't make a difference and the fan noise was driving me nuts.

[0culus]

Interesting video and I watched it all the way.

When Gigabyte long ago started advertising their boards for gaming and decorating it accordingly along with the other manufacturers I stopped taking them seriously and it put me off. I just preferred them plain with an accurate description of what it can do. I don't mind a bit of decorations in the packaging but I find that over the top now and they state things that are not true.

It's a plague which affected basically all manufacturers. Mumbo jumbo RGB dance lights and sorts of crap. Backplates on graphics cards without any thermal interface to PCB (some have it), basically shielding heat. Covers on motherboards, often called armor.

 

I had one of the early ones from ASUS in my old build. It was intended that you installed a small fan in the space where that blank is between the first PCI and the socket. If you didn't...well that was your problem.

[wraper]

And sure ducting does a better job of cooling and needing less fans makes the system more quiet (and accumulate less dust). Before this system I had a standard case and one of the problems with it was that de CPU would overheat after a while due to accumation of dust in the CPU heatsink. Positive or negative pressure didn't make a difference and the fan noise was driving me nuts.

Multiple fan noises don't add up much. It will be a little bit worse than loudest of the fans. And your system was garbage. Decent cases have dust filters and decent coolers have quite large gaps between heatsink fins so barely any dust accumulates on those. I recently looked on CPU fan in my PC. After 1.5 years of use, no dust on CPU heatsink, although my apartment accumulates quite a lot of dust.

[hans]

GamersNexus YT often does VRM analysis of "high-end" graphics cards and motherboards.

Doublers are also a thing. You take a 6-phase controller IC, and basically feed that PWM to 2 gate drivers at half the frequency, and voila! More phases..
But it doesn't increase the PWM resolution or actually change the phase.. it just adds more output stages. Those output stages may share the current, and since P=I^2 * R, things will run less hot & more efficient. But not with a tighter line or load regulation.

[wraper]

But it doesn't increase the PWM resolution or actually change the phase.. it just adds more output stages. Those output stages may share the current, and since P=I^2 * R, things will run less hot & more efficient. But not with a tighter line or load regulation.

You are completely wrong in this. It does double phase number. In it's true meaning, and outputs of those doublers have phase shifted. There is no lie in it. It does not add individual control and current sensing of those phases though if PWM controller/doublers are dumb. Or may if controller/doublers are smart.