Moving to California after Graduation. No job lined up yet. Tips?

[sentry7]

Hey guys,

I'll be completing my undergrad studies in May; BS in Physics. I pursued an engineering track in my coursework, so I took some courses of that nature as well as gained hands-on experience (in addition to stuff I learned on my own). I ultimately want a job that is more electronics engineering-oriented than anything. My current resume is attached.

As far as the move is concerned, everything is already set; flight is booked, hotel is reserved etc. I've been applying for jobs recently saying in the resume/cover letter that I am already committed to relocating, but I feel as though that's not as strong as actually being in the area. Once I actually get to L.A. (where I'm staying temporarily), my plan is to start applying to places like a madman and even pay visits to lots of tech startups in the area. Hopefully, I get a walk-in interview.

Can anyone give me some insight on steps to take, do's-don'ts,...?

[rrinker]

 The best advice? Do not move to such a high cost of living area UNTIL you have secured a job there. Save your money while on the hunt. And don't be so dead set on one part of the country. a 10K less salary in a different part of the country could actually be a big increase in what's left over after paying living expenses.

 Also don't get discouraged, keep the applications flowing even if you have some interviews lined up. Much better to return a call with "sorry, I've already accepted a position" than to sit around waiting for the call.

[rstofer]

Silicon Valley, where the jobs are, is somewhat north of LA.  Every major electronics and software house in the world has a building in Silicon Valley.  Well, at least the major players...

LA and SV have horrific housing prices and the traffic in both places is unbelievable.  When I took a job in LA, I started driving from the office in a circular pattern until I found something I could afford. The rent was cheap and the commute was just a couple of miles.  I left LA 40 years ago and I'm not going back!

Take more software courses.  The job prospects for EE's is pretty grim while CS is looking pretty good:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

You can drill down in these web pages and find out where the jobs are located (across the US) and how much they pay, by region.  You will find that Silicon Valley pays well and has growth potential.

[rx8pilot]

I hate California, especially LA, but really the whole state. Unless you make a massive pile of money, it is a shitty place.

If your expectations are appropriately low, it may be fine. As soon as I am able to escape this place - I am out and will never return.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[Elf]

I also would not recommend moving to California, absent a stable high paying job (six figures) or strong family ties. I escaped California after living there for a few decades (Irvine & Santa Barbara) and couldn't be happier.

The market is tough for recent graduates without work experience, from what I can tell, and there are certainly many jobs elsewhere across the nation. If you want to move for work and don't have strong ties to a particular area, you can have your pick of places. Between the high cost of living and inflated real estate prices, high taxes, drought issues, constant fires, mudslides, and earthquakes, California is probably not the best place to seek out if you have a choice. A million-dollar home in California can be a $200k home most other places in the country.

I try not to even travel to California on vacation any more. The last time I drove down I got stuck with a $30 fine for "toll evasion" due to not having a FasTrack pass or actual paper money on hand, with the Bay Area bridge toll bridge cartel. Every single north-south route through the Bay Area is tolled, cards are not accepted, and out of state license plates are no excuse.

[steverino]

I guess I don't know any better, but I'm living happily in the outskirts of Silicon Valley.

[IanB]

"Los Angeles" is huge, stretching from Pasadena in the north all the way down to Irvine and Orange county in the south. There could be a job to find anywhere in that area, but as others have noted the traffic is horrendous and the commute could be hours unless you live reasonably close by. So don't commit on where to live until you first find a job.

You could also consider looking further south around the San Diego area, especially in software. Things are a little bit calmer and saner down here.

[rx8pilot]

In LA, 10 miles can easily be an hour on the road.

[DimitriP]

Every country, state, county, city, even neigborhood has it's issues.
What I'm curious about is how the idea to move from VA to CA right after graduation came about.

On the plus side, you have a couple fo months to tweak the resume  and send it out everywhere , including California.

[george graves]

CA is so huge and diverse, that saying you're moving there, you might as wall say you're moving to North America. Hard to help with out knowing that city.

[Vgkid]

Try looking towards NC, though you are closer to DC/NOVA

[Nusa]

My #1 problem with the whole LA basin is the air quality. It's bad enough just visiting (sometimes...there are good days and bad days), but I wouldnt want to breathe it all the time.

You should start applying for jobs NOW. Your school probably has resources available to help you in that search...take advantage of them. Many companies actually recruit at schools...attend any job fairs that happen. Companies that are serious about hiring you will fly you out for an interview. They may lowball you on the salary, but even then they'll usually pay some moving expenses. Keep your options open geographically, unless you really have a strong reasons to move to particular places.

If you do decide move on your own, be prepared to work shit jobs (waiter, pizza-delivery, janitor, etc) until you find what you're looking for. If you're anywhere near hollywood, you'll be competing with all the out-of-work actors for even those jobs.

[cncjerry]

I've lived in the North Bay area for nearly 25yrs and I don't recommend moving out here either for your first job.  It is ridiculously expensive.  It you want a technology job go to the Seattle area or Austin first.  North Carolina as well.  Seattle will save you 10% in state taxes alone.  Gas prices are about 30 cents or more higher than anywhere else, apartment rent will make you want to slit your throat and SF parking is the worst in the country. We moved from DC thinking the parking would be better and found out that DC was #2 and SF #1.  One thing to remember is when there is a tech layoff of like 10K jobs, many times a lot of those jobs are out here.

Having said all that, I would rather live here than anywhere.  NorCal weather is great and if you don't like it you can drive to where you do.  On many days there is a 45 degree temperature delta between SF and northern Marin county, sometimes even more.  Not one drop of rain from May until September or even later.

[HighVoltage]

I lived 2 years in LA, Manhattan-Beach, and that was enough. In those 2 years I saw the beautiful mountains 3 times because the rest of the time the air pollution was so bad, I could not even see the high buildings in downtown. But there is for sure plenty of work in LA, if you can cope with the rest. After LA, I moved to San Diego in the south of CA and it was clean and empty in comparison to LA and also lots of engineering jobs. May be an alternative for you.

[bills]

Commieforina (California) is not a great place to live unless you like sitting in traffic, paying high taxes, public transportation that does not go any where people need to go, and almost everything is over priced. (expensive)
Not to mention the social problems.
 
There is an exception the eastern part of the state is ok, but no jobs in your field.
Sorry for the doom and gloom but this state is out of control.

Edit. I forgot to mention the crappy condition of the roads.

[NiHaoMike]

I agree with LA (usually) having very bad traffic, but San Diego generally is much better than Austin. (In Austin, it only takes a little bit of rain to slow things to a crawl.)

[Galenbo]

In LA, 10 miles can easily be an hour on the road.

That's exactly the same average in a radius of 25km around Brussels and Paris.

[rx8pilot]

Paris is 40 square miles. Los Angeles is over 500 square miles. Everything is far away. It is all too common to settle into a 24-36 month rental and get a job 25-30 miles away. Public transportation is rarely useful since it takes double the time if you are lucky. There are plenty of other cities in the world with very slow traffic, but most of them are small and have far better public transportation options.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[Richard Crowley]

I am eternally happy that I moved out of California some 40 years ago. Even back then it was becoming insufferable.  Oregon has much nicer atmosphere, but the politics here are becoming insufferable also.  Now I see why people retire to Belize where the official language is English(!).   

[Elf]

Oregon has much nicer atmosphere, but the politics here are becoming insufferable also.

It's all the people that have been moving up from California
(I moved to Southwest Washington in 2011 but the character has been changing noticeably in the past few years. I think a lot of people have been moving up to treat it as California Lite, at least judging by the license plates I see, rather than trying to appreciate the Pacific Northwest for its differences.)

[tpowell1830]

The opinions expressed here have all been good, but the one overriding principle that has been shown is that you should wait before moving to any area and that a super job offer may come your way that, in all metrics, is much better than anything that you may find in a given area.

The idea that one area is better than another is strictly subjective and only you will be able to make that judgement over time.  However, given that we all grow more mature in our thoughts and pragmatic with experiences, the area that pleases you now may very well not please you over time.

Bottom line: Wait for your job options and locations and carefully weigh your decision based on cooler, more pragmatic opinions/thoughts because the decision you make now may very well be a very regretful one. You may find it difficult to move to a new job location later on, because you just can't predict what your budgetary constraints may be later on.

[tggzzz]

Now I see why people retire to Belize where the official language is English(!).   

Not entirely surprising, since until 1981 it was called "British Honduras". The head of state is still Lilibet "Windsor", and there are 1500 British troops stationed there.

[james_s]

Seattle is insanely expensive too, they say we are about 10 years behind San Francisco in that department. There are far too many people here and they keep flooding in, I really wish people would stop moving to Seattle. If I hadn't bought my place years ago there's no way I could afford to live around here anymore.

LA is a fun place to visit but I would never want to live there. The key to getting around there is use the light rail, I discovered that on a visit and found it was much faster and more economical than trying to drive on the clogged freeways.

[Richard Crowley]

Victoria, BC, Canadia apparently imposed a 15% tax on foreigners buying real-estate.  So now all the rich Chinese buyers are going to Seattle and Portland.  Here in Portland we saw a big surge in sales of homes > $1M. And real-estate (and rentals) are being pushed up by government actions both locally and regionally.  The "Silicon Forest" is seeing the same kind of effect that hit the Silicon Valley a couple decades ago.

[DavidDLC]

Any place but California, now in San Diego there is also a high increase in housing, both for buyers and renters. And the traffic may hit you on the 805 or 5 interstates if you don't live close to your work.

David DLC

[metrologist]

Hunger. Save up for it... prepare to get used to it... Heat and clean clothes are over rated...

[mmagin]

I certainly don't mind living here, but wouldn't recommend moving here without either a job offer in hand or a friend's couch to crash on for free.  You're going to burn through a lot of money quickly.  And any larger employer (or employer that's drowning in venture capital money) would probably be just fine with flying you out for an interview if the phone screen goes well and paying some amount for relocation if they hire you.

[bitseeker]

You may want to check out some cost of living calculators to get a sense for various places you might want to live/work in.

For example, this CNN Money calculator,  based on 2015 data, illustrates what folks are talking about:

from Richmond, VA to Los Angeles/Long Beach

    Groceries: 13%more
    Housing: 141%more
    Utilities: 6%more
    Transportation: 38%more
    Health Care: 6%more

Overall, you need to make approximately 50% more salary in LA to afford the same lifestyle as Richmond.

The Silicon Valley (generalized as San Francisco) is even more expensive, particularly for food and housing:

    Groceries: 35%more
    Housing: 263%more
    Utilities: 2%less
    Transportation: 35%more
    Health Care: 14%more

Overall, you need to make approximately 80% more than in Richmond.

As mmagin said, you don't necessarily have to be living where you want to work in order to get a job there. Medium to large companies are not strangers to phone interviews and flying out candidates who make it to the last stages of the interview process. So, do as much as you can before you depart.

[Back2Volts]

Can anyone give me some insight on steps to take, do's-don'ts,...?

I guess there have been plenty of don'ts, mostly "don't move to California"

For the do's...   I have a question:   Do you have student loans?   Have you checked how much you should be paying as soon as you start working?   If you do have loans, I would say "go get a job that will allow you to gain good experience, while paying off your student loans as quick as possible".   (I doubt that will happen in California.)

[brucehoult]

Amazing how many people have been recommending against California!

I'm from New Zealand, but I've worked in Seattle and Chicago as well as Silicon Valley. When I was job hunting a couple of years ago (after being back in NZ for a few years) I was getting good nibbles from California companies and both Amazon and Google were at the point of flying me from NZ to USA for on-site interviews when Samsung R&D Russia offered me a six month remote work contract based just on a skype interview, so I took that. That went well and they offered me a permanent job in Moscow with a visa that's essentially identical to the US H1-B (i.e. fixed to one company, 3 years with one 3 year renewal, after that either get residency/Green card or else leave the county for a year minimum).

It seemed interesting, so I went with that, and I haven't regretted it!

The salary is internationally competitive, but taxes are only 13%. Apartments and restaurants are very similar to NZ prices (far less than California) and everything else is much cheaper: Uber (or Gett, Yandex .. all have apps), buses&subway, internet, mobile. Cheap 2-3 hour flights to anything from Turkey to Italy to Switzerland to Paris/London to Norway. Spain a bit further. I'm the only foreigner in the company, but everyone speaks English and all the work is in English. If you go into a random shop or cafe in central Moscow it's about 50/50 whether they'll speak English -- more than one person there and the odds only go up. And if not ... there's google translate.

No one has *ever* been upset or rude that I don't speak Russian, or used a translator. Unless I tell them I'm from NZ I  suppose most people assume I'm American or possibly English. I've never seen any anti-foreigner things at all. On the contrary, everyone has friends or relatives who live in the USA, they maybe visited them, everyone who can afford it goes on vacations in Europe. People in Moscow and  St Petersburg, at least, feel they should be part of Europe and it's only their stupid government that prevents them.

When I moved here it took me two days to find a 580 sq ft (54 m^2) nice modern apartment two minutes walk from work for US$960 a month (NZ$315/wk). Sadly, the owner recently decided to sell it. Now I'm in a nicer 830 sq ft (77 m^2) apartment in the same building for US$1140 (NZ$375/wk). Water and electricity add about $25 a month (winter heating is included in the rent, so electricity is only cooking, lights, computer...), and internet is US$11/month for 100/100 Mbps unlimited. I have 3 GB/month on the iPhone for US$6. If you go to town in a good (but not top) restaurant you can spend $35 - $40 (NZ$50 - 60) including salad, main, dessert, beer/cider, coffee. Or you can spend half that. Uber is 90c pickup, 15c/km plus 15c/min ($1.75 minimum trip). A single metro/bus/tram ride is 60c, a 2nd bus/tram ride (not metro) within 90 minutes is 30c, extra bus/tram within that 90 min are free.

Coming from NZ it sucks that there aren't mountains or beaches near. You can fly to the Europe ones easily enough. The winter is also a bit rough, though no worse than midwest USA or Canada. All the apartments and offices and shopping centers are heated like crazy in winter -- 24 - 25 C is the norm. Too much.

Don't mean to be propaganda here ... just agreeing with the "I've worked in California and a lot of things about it suck" general sentiment. There are other places.

[Nusa]

I'm not anti-California, I'm anti-smog. That's only a serious problem in a couple parts of California, LA in partcular.

Otherwise, the cost of housing is the biggest issue for newcomers, particularly unemployed ones. If your salary is large enough to compensate for that, then that's not a problem. I orginally moved to California in 1993 because I literally doubled my salary when I did so. But I got the job BEFORE I moved. And they paid for the move.

On the utilities front, the price comparisions don't factor in climate, so it's actually much better than they say. Sure, the cost of heating and cooling is high in California, but the NEED for heating and cooling is lower, at least if you're in a coastal area. My electric and gas bill in the San Diego area about 2 miles from the ocean averages about $40/month with a slight spike in January and February when I turn on the heat.

[brucehoult]

Otherwise, the cost of housing is the biggest issue for newcomers, particularly unemployed ones. If your salary is large enough to compensate for that, then that's not a problem. I orginally moved to California in 1993 because I literally doubled my salary when I did so. But I got the job BEFORE I moved. And they paid for the move.

Between the taxes and the housing costs I'd want $200k to move from Moscow to California, minimum. Better $250k to make up for or avoid the sucky commute. Oh, and six weeks vacation pa.

If that's on offer then ... ok.

[timothyaag]

Silicon Valley, where the jobs are, is somewhat north of LA.  Every major electronics and software house in the world has a building in Silicon Valley.  Well, at least the major players...

LA and SV have horrific housing prices and the traffic in both places is unbelievable.  When I took a job in LA, I started driving from the office in a circular pattern until I found something I could afford. The rent was cheap and the commute was just a couple of miles.  I left LA 40 years ago and I'm not going back!

Take more software courses.  The job prospects for EE's is pretty grim while CS is looking pretty good:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

You can drill down in these web pages and find out where the jobs are located (across the US) and how much they pay, by region.  You will find that Silicon Valley pays well and has growth potential.

I have a family member that works at Apple and he told me there are a bunch of new software grads making 80-90K and living in their cars. They can't afford to live nearby, and use Apples showers and (awesome) food court, so they're finding it worth it to live chaotically to secure that career path for themselves. It's crazy what people will do to have Apple or Google on their resume.

[IanB]

I have a family member that works at Apple and he told me there are a bunch of new software grads making 80-90K and living in their cars. They can't afford to live nearby, and use Apples showers and (awesome) food court, so they're finding it worth it to live chaotically to secure that career path for themselves. It's crazy what people will do to have Apple or Google on their resume.

I think there may be a bit more to it than this. A salary of $90k should result in a net monthly income of about $5k after taxes and deductions. I believe it should be possible to find a one bedroom apartment in silicon valley for about $2.5k/mo, which would leave $2k or more as disposable income. You can live on that. Maybe not like a king, but you can certainly afford a reasonable standard of living. So I'm not sure the decision to live in a car is really driven by necessity, maybe more a case of reluctance to spend, or maybe a preference to spend money on other things.

[Richard Crowley]

https://youtu.be/10hRo2XEiKI

https://youtu.be/3oygW4qtBIM

https://youtu.be/YLbnvwKZUGw

[timothyaag]

I have a family member that works at Apple and he told me there are a bunch of new software grads making 80-90K and living in their cars. They can't afford to live nearby, and use Apples showers and (awesome) food court, so they're finding it worth it to live chaotically to secure that career path for themselves. It's crazy what people will do to have Apple or Google on their resume.

I think there may be a bit more to it than this. A salary of $90k should result in a net monthly income of about $5k after taxes and deductions. I believe it should be possible to find a one bedroom apartment in silicon valley for about $2.5k/mo, which would leave $2k or more as disposable income. You can live on that. Maybe not like a king, but you can certainly afford a reasonable standard of living. So I'm not sure the decision to live in a car is really driven by necessity, maybe more a case of reluctance to spend, or maybe a preference to spend money on other things.

That's interesting, I hadn't investigated what he said. $2.5k a month on rent, for a 1BR, has got to sting. I don't know if I'd find $2.5k of value difference between sleeping in the car and a 1BR either.

[mmagin]

Silicon Valley, where the jobs are, is somewhat north of LA.  Every major electronics and software house in the world has a building in Silicon Valley.  Well, at least the major players...

LA and SV have horrific housing prices and the traffic in both places is unbelievable.  When I took a job in LA, I started driving from the office in a circular pattern until I found something I could afford. The rent was cheap and the commute was just a couple of miles.  I left LA 40 years ago and I'm not going back!

Take more software courses.  The job prospects for EE's is pretty grim while CS is looking pretty good:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

You can drill down in these web pages and find out where the jobs are located (across the US) and how much they pay, by region.  You will find that Silicon Valley pays well and has growth potential.

I have a family member that works at Apple and he told me there are a bunch of new software grads making 80-90K and living in their cars. They can't afford to live nearby, and use Apples showers and (awesome) food court, so they're finding it worth it to live chaotically to secure that career path for themselves. It's crazy what people will do to have Apple or Google on their resume.

Hmm.  I started working in the SF Bay Area (doing software work) after college in a rather bad job market at a salary, which adjusted according to the CPI would fall at the higher end of that range today.  If it hadn't been for the fact that apartments were cheap and commuting was easy due to the fact that nearly a million people had left the area, it would have really sucked.

It is certainly nice to live somewhere there actually are a decent variety of jobs though.  It helps avoid the problem experienced by so many people a generation ago when they lived in a town with one big manufacturing plant that closed up.

But I personally wouldn't move to a high cost of living area on my own expense, except maybe in the case I was running my own successful consulting business or something.

[james_s]

That's interesting, I hadn't investigated what he said. $2.5k a month on rent, for a 1BR, has got to sting. I don't know if I'd find $2.5k of value difference between sleeping in the car and a 1BR either.

Man that's just crazy. I pay less than that for a 15 year mortgage on a 3 bedroom house and I consider my area to be insanely expensive already. That said, houses around me have doubled in value since I bought mine back in 2004 and I don't see how this is sustainable. It's looking a whole lot like the period before the big bust several years back and I suspect another huge crash is coming. They never fixed most of the issues that led to the last collapse.

I'm fortunate enough to work in tech myself, but I don't see how anyone working ordinary jobs can afford to live anywhere around here. We can't all have tech jobs.

[rx8pilot]

I think there may be a bit more to it than this. A salary of $90k should result in a net monthly income of about $5k after taxes and deductions. I believe it should be possible to find a one bedroom apartment in silicon valley for about $2.5k/mo, which would leave $2k or more as disposable income. You can live on that. Maybe not like a king, but you can certainly afford a reasonable standard of living. So I'm not sure the decision to live in a car is really driven by necessity, maybe more a case of reluctance to spend, or maybe a preference to spend money on other things.

50% of your net income on rent SUCKS! The balance is not disposable income unless you never eat, have a car or pay for public transportation, wear clothes, etc....you end up in a month-to-month situation for the most part. If you lose your job, you have very little or nothing to support yourself until you find another $90k job. You will have a roof over your head, food, clothes, and a tiny handful of social dollars left over. Lets say you are burning $4k/mo on the absolute basics and you lose your job. It takes 4 months to get to the next job - how do you save up $16k just to keep your basic life together during that time? If you are frugal enough to have saved $16k in that situation - do you really want it to be blown out the window in 4 months? Hell no.

If you are making $200k+, it is more palatable but you are still going to be in a rental situation where you build no equity. If you live a very modest life and go for absolute maximum savings, you may be able to get into a house after 3-4 years or so. At least then your mortgage is buying some equity in a tangible asset.

Some people are cool with all of this (obviously) - but it gets old real fast when all you do is work extremely hard for food and shelter. I have already constructed my exit strategy and can hardly wait to get the F out of California.

[Gregg]

The quickest way to bankruptcy is to move to an expensive part of California without a real job offer.   Try to find something close to where the cost of living is something you can afford on an entry level position of any local medium to large company and try to endear yourself to everyone at the job; even people you can’t stand.  Always give a little more than is asked and take every opportunity to take all training offered.  Keep notes along the way to include in your resume.   Within a couple of years, you can have a resume that will allow you to find a job in California that will at least pay your expenses.
Try to stay away from temp agencies as they take over 50% for their managing your meager existence and in return give you less than zero job security. 
Always try to make good contacts and never burn your bridges.  It isn’t as much what you know as who you know that will land you the good job.
When an opportunity comes to jump to another company at a higher position, take it, even if the new company is a little shaky.  I have known people that jumped form big company to small company that a few years later was gobbled up by the big company they had left and they ended up way above the co-workers they had left behind in the big company.