Author Topic: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader  (Read 5763 times)

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Offline edyTopic starter

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Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« on: December 30, 2022, 09:07:29 pm »
So last week in the midst of the crazy bomb cyclone of the American north east, my car decided for the first time ever to spring up a “Engine Light” (Honda CR-V 2011). At first I panicked thinking I have to immediately run to a mechanic, but then once I started reading up on it I found it could be one of a million different things, from as simple as a loose seal on a gas tank cover, to oxygen sensors and various other engine components.

Not having any information at all I started doing all the simple checks I could, tightening the gas cap, checking for loose connections, checking for leaks or low levels of fluids, you know basic stuff. I drove the car around and didn’t notice much difference. It’s old and sluggish and has always been. But I decided to order an OBD2 reader to see what is going on just so when I show up at a mechanic I have some idea so they don’t try to sell me a bag of goods I didn’t ask for.

Anyways, as luck would have it I received my OBD2 reader today in the mail from Amazon. I was just about to open it and try it out when I needed to run an errand and lo and behold… the freakin’ engine light reset itself!!!! It turned off!!!   :-DD  Freakin’ Murphy at it again!!!  I didn’t even have a chance to open the package, just the mere presence of the OBD2 reader scared my car into submission!!!  :-DD

So I’m going to keep this OBD2 reader anyways but my question is, does it look at past codes? Is there any memory of past faults or any historical data stored in OBD2 if I hook it up now that the engine light is off? I would just like to know what it could have been. I don’t know if cars record or log these things. I guess I’m happy the engine light turned off and I need to go for a “Service B” anyways.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 09:09:39 pm by edy »
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2022, 11:18:42 pm »
Almost certainly a 2011 car will have a history of past codes.  You will need a guide to tell you what those hex codes actually mean.
Jon
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2022, 11:45:34 pm »
Fixing the condition, typically does not reset the displayed code... at least, not for a while. 

I seem to recall having error codes that indicated misfires on a couple of cylinders.  It would periodically come and go.  I eventually figured out it was worn out spark plugs.  They would only miss when the engine was under heavy loads or something.  So if I didn't push it for a couple of weeks or so, it would reset itself. 

I don't think they have an OBD II on my current car.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2022, 12:05:10 am »
I had a problem with diesel car a long while ago (Peugeot 206 HDi).

I was driving on the motorway at 70 mph and suddenly the car began to slow down and the check engine light came on.  It would not go any faster than about 35 mph and the engine revs would not go past 2000 rpm.  Not great especially given the heavy traffic and weather, so I pulled over as soon as I could.

Restarted the car, MIL was still lit, but performance was restored.  Merged back onto the motorway and a few minutes later again, the power cut out.  So pulled over again, and restarted it. 

Made it home fine.  And it was fine for two years after that.

I pulled the codes after the incident, it was an EGR valve issue, but apparently the software can only detect if the EGR valve is faulty by looking at how the pressure changes when you go into low load.  I think it was just a combination of conditions (high humidity and rain, low temperature?) combined with probably a sticky or briefly intermittent sensor all combining together to cause a fault condition and on that car, most engine faults lead to limp home mode being activated.  There was no real reason to limit power, the fault would not kill the engine (at worst it would make the emissions a bit worse), but the software dictated the power must be low.

I don't think I've ever had a car that's been 100% solid, even my most expensive cars.  I've really gotten used to examining the VCDS fault logs for my current vehicle.  They are complex machines and there is lots to go wrong.
 

Offline GLouie

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2022, 02:34:09 am »
Many of those vague warning lights can take a while to reset after correcting the problem. I once had a loose gas cap light on a 2007 Civic, and it took a few days to turn off after checking the cap. Annoying, but documented in the manual.

I have heard that some modern OBDII faults can reset after so many start cycles, or it could be miles. May depend on the fault.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2022, 03:17:40 am »
Many of those vague warning lights can take a while to reset after correcting the problem. I once had a loose gas cap light on a 2007 Civic, and it took a few days to turn off after checking the cap. Annoying, but documented in the manual.

I have heard that some modern OBDII faults can reset after so many start cycles, or it could be miles. May depend on the fault.

The OBDII reader can reset error codes.  At least that's what I've found.  I used one once to get my car though emissions testing.  I don't remember what was wrong, but at first they said I had to come back in 4 weeks, because the car records that the faults were reset, lol.  I also reset them the second time and the guy let me pass. 

I think it may have been an O2 sensor which I eventually climbed under the vehicle and fixed. 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2022, 11:35:07 am »
hi the lights and codes are often intermittent, come and go randomly.

OBD readers vary widely in capability and vehicle coverage. Code history and resetting are possible but may be hard or impossible on some OBD.

On my 2007 Volvo I have meaningless and random ominous indications

Check engine
Engine system service required
Tire pressure monitor system service required

But car runs fine, service finds nothing and eventually the "issues" disappear.

Perhaps unreliable Sensors or CPU software or just another scam to get you to the ( very costly) dealer...

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Offline SeanB

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2022, 12:39:41 pm »
Stored code probably is for an emission system leak, probably a loose fuel cap leaking air, so the evap purge was unable to complete. Takes around 5 stop start cycles from cold for the ECU to decide the error has been fixed, and reset the lamp, but the error is still stored till erased, either by disconnecting battery for 15 minutes, or using a reader to reset it. The error takes 5 cycles of failing to show an error, so that is why it takes a few days to show up, and to reset.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2022, 01:25:05 pm »
@edy: Seems to me that the obvious thing to do is to connect that ODB2 reader to your car and see what it reports. Have you done that yet?
 
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Online RJSV

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2022, 08:00:44 pm »
   Yeah, 'Periodic service due' (thanks, jonpaul), can happen, as the critical and recommended issues aren't distinguished, by the single 'Check Engine'.
You might think a major issue like that would not last long, before manufacturers step in and get some kind of system feature, to distinguish things like:
   'wiper fluid low', vs 'engine overheat'.

   Supposed to be an 'open source' spec. you could look up, and get generic info. across many brands, or manufacturers.  It's a matter of customer ease, and transparency, across the various markets.
Some, build obdII in, reluctantly, and worse, presently teaching customers they might, maybe, just ignore the flakey seeming indicator, not a path towards reliability.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2022, 08:14:01 pm »
   Yeah, 'Periodic service due' (thanks, jonpaul), can happen, as the critical and recommended issues aren't distinguished, by the single 'Check Engine'.
You might think a major issue like that would not last long, before manufacturers step in and get some kind of system feature, to distinguish things like:
   'wiper fluid low', vs 'engine overheat'.

   Supposed to be an 'open source' spec. you could look up, and get generic info. across many brands, or manufacturers.  It's a matter of customer ease, and transparency, across the various markets.
Some, build obdII in, reluctantly, and worse, presently teaching customers they might, maybe, just ignore the flakey seeming indicator, not a path towards reliability.

Clearly the problem is they don't have enough processing power in cars to be able to distinguish the causes of problems.  ;)

In reality, you would think one of the many displays in a car could indicate what is actually wrong.  I believe at this point, it is only the very least expensive models in an automaker's line up that don't have at least a 7 inch display.  I can only think this is about getting you into the car dealer. 

There are the standard codes which are part of the OBD II spec.  But manufacturers also add their own, proprietary codes, which tend to not be so public.  A bit of Internet searching will uncover their meaning.
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2023, 01:27:14 am »
My car notified me of Service B a few weeks ago. It eventually showed 5% oil life left, then when it supposedly became 0 it started counting KM negative… look at attached image, with the “wrench sign” showing. Then when my engine light came on it also took out the anti slip traction control option.

I checked my engine oil, it was low, I added more oil a couple weeks ago. My engine does slowly burn oil, it’s very light 0W20 synthetic for Honda CR-V engine. Anyways, everything reset a few days after the engine light went on. I never had a chance to plug in the OBD2 reader (see photos attached still in package).

I’ll plug it in and report on the results.
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2023, 05:52:04 pm »
Ok, code has been read and I’m trying to make sense of it. Again, please note the sequence of events over last few weeks.

1. Oil life % was lowering and it recently when to 5% then 0, at which point the Service B notice goes on and a little yellow wrench icon displays.

2. I added some oil myself just to keep me going as I also noticed the red oil little flicker once when I was driving. I checked the oil and indeed it was low. My engine does burn through the light 0W20 oil slowly over a few years so I periodically do have to add a bit. There is no obvious leak, I have no spots anywhere on my parking spot that I park consistently on indoors for years.

3. About 1 week ago the MIL engine service light went on. I kept using my car and about 5-6 days later it turned off all by itself. I didn’t do anything at all except lift the hood, make sure I didn’t forget to tighten my oil cap, checked oil, checked gas cap, etc… this is all *before* I even hooked up the OBD2 reader.

4. It’s been a few days now, no MIL light. Car starts and runs fine just like it did before and during the time the MIL light was on. I plugged in my OBD2 reader and have attached the following images:

- initial screen showing status (1 page)
- error code that triggered MIL (1 page)
- snapshot of the condition at time of error (7 pages) - next post as it exceeds 10
- I/M emissions test status since error cleared (3 pages) - next post as it exceeds 10

Based on this data I came upon this info:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/p0341-obd-ii-trouble-code-camshaft-position-sensor-circuit-range-performance-by-jay-safford

I am going to assume at this point that it was a temporary glitch and that it won’t happen again. Seems like it is likely a sensor or wiring issue but hopefully unlikely to actually be a mechanical flaw underlying what this sensor is actually looking for. Maybe just something when doing a cold start on a day after a weekend not driving, took a few more cranks to get going, and not so much oil (before I added some more)… If the timing belt, crank shaft position or actual mechanical issue still there it would have retained the MIL and probably caused some noticeable engine problems yet I am driving fine and light went off on it’s own. Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2023, 06:18:49 pm by edy »
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2023, 05:58:31 pm »
Here are the other pages I read from the ODB2 device, I believe it’s a snapshot (7 pages) of the engine conditions at time of the code trigger, and 3 pages of what I believe are emissions I/M data since the last error? I guess that tells you what systems were tested and passed? The 1st page of the snapshot is the last attachment even though I added it first.

Here is more info:

https://hondatheotherside.com/p0341-honda-dtc-code/

Note that I *DID NOT* clear any codes or any data whatsoever using my OBD2 device. Everything is still there, I only used it to read stuff. Whatever happened the car did itself, I guess after it did more checks after several driving cycles and figured things were ok again. I believe if you wait long enough even the original error code will erase itself and I won’t be able to read it anymore with my OBD2 reader?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2023, 06:02:13 pm by edy »
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Offline tom66

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2023, 06:22:59 pm »
May be worth looking at the code set criteria for P0314 and it might give you some ideas.  Also if your car is constantly burning oil have you considered going up a grade?  I don't know what the tolerance of your engine is but remember the oil specified has to be able to start the car without excessive wear at the lowest operating temperature, for instance -25C when the oil viscosity is poor.  If your car never experiences those temperatures due to location or because it's garaged then a thicker oil may be OK and limit the burn rate. 
 

Offline Pfriemler

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2023, 03:03:21 pm »
I use several OBD2 diagnostics for my vehicles and can confirm, that the engine lamp stop to lit after a temporair failure does not reappear. Mostly it's about three engine cyclings (off/on). This is intended and normal, i.e. the failure may be gone long before the lamp stops.
Whereas P1xxx codes are manufacturer specific, the P0xxx have to be identical. P0314 are ignition failure, unburned fuel may harm the cat.

In my BMW E9x diesel I have two failures in storage without any harm to the machine, my mechanics advised me to leave as is. I may reset them, they reappear. As they are not critical to emission values, the engine lamp remains dark. Emission tests were passed always.

Fun fact: my 2wheel BEV has OBD, too. A few days ago the lamp came only for one cycle, I managed to read the code, a P1xxx, varying from 02 sensor to motor coolant temperature failures - it was the battery management system reporting that is was to cool to charge the battery...
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2023, 03:57:35 am »
So it turns out my battery finally died today. It failed to crank the engine on. I had to run to work so I used my wife’s car and when I came back home I took the battery out and used a car battery charger to top it up. I managed to get it back into the vehicle and it started the engine. Only warning light that continues to be on as it was before is the Service B1 (oil change, oil filter, etc) maintenance code. Engine check MIL light still off.

I did notice some difficulty cranking especially when it was colder a few weeks ago. I thought that if the temperature got warmer (as it is now in Toronto) that it resolve itself. I am pretty sure I didn’t leave any lights on and nothing was draining the battery. By the way it’s probably a number of years old… I’m sure more than 5 years now.

I’m any case, I’m wondering if the fact that the battery was a bit low could have erroneously triggered that code about the cam sync sensor. Or… it could be there is a slow discharge of the battery through some corroded wire short that is draining the battery and could cause issues with the sensors. I’m going to get my mechanic to do the Service B1 anyways and switch out my battery (unless he thinks it can be reconditioned but it is fairly old) and see if there is anything else he can find.
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2023, 07:02:58 am »
I have found a few time when the battery is weak that you can get a host of random errors from the car. Some of the computers are rather sensitive to low power exp when cranking to start.

I have the issue of water getting into stuff which makes the computer not shut down so it keeps waking up and draining the battery over the week.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2023, 09:38:45 am »
Definitely a thing.  I had an intermittent 12V system problem with my hybrid Golf, due to a high-resistance fuse.  The fuse failed in such a way that the 12V from the battery would be unstable. (In VW's infinite wisdom, the 12V battery is in the boot, and the 200A cable with fuse hangs off the positive terminal.  It's basically a spring, so any bumps at the back cause the fuse to experience additional stress.)  I pulled about 120 errors from the VCDS port before the fuse was replaced, everything from "infotainment system CD player fault" to "ABS controller malfunction".
 
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2023, 01:36:08 pm »
So after charging up the battery last night and starting the car, this morning I woke up to a dead battery. I charged it up again just enough to start the car and then noticed the light at the back (for the hatchback trunk on a CR-V) was set to permanently “on”!!!  |O So that’s probably what drained the battery overnight. I don’t know how long it has been that way. Anyways I managed to drive to work and brought all my charging gear. I didn’t disconnect the battery so we will see if there is still a drain somewhere or if I found the culprit.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2023, 04:23:20 pm »
5W bulb (~450mA) @ 16 hours parked = 7.2Ah

A normal car battery should hold 50~120Ah so, unless the battery is totally knackered or was at a very low state of charge, it's probably not that.

Though it is possible that keeping that light on prevents some of the CAN bus from going to sleep, and that could then pull 50-100W.  Depends on whether the bulb is just running via a switch and a connection to "+12V_always" or if it goes back to the body module to do things like dim the bulb after it turns off or light it up when the vehicle is unlocked. 

Modern cars just seem to exude complexity for such trivial reasons.
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2023, 04:34:27 pm »
I am going to assume at this point that it was a temporary glitch and that it won’t happen again. Seems like it is likely a sensor or wiring issue but hopefully unlikely to actually be a mechanical flaw underlying what this sensor is actually looking for. Maybe just something when doing a cold start on a day after a weekend not driving, took a few more cranks to get going, and not so much oil (before I added some more)… If the timing belt, crank shaft position or actual mechanical issue still there it would have retained the MIL and probably caused some noticeable engine problems yet I am driving fine and light went off on it’s own. Any thoughts?
P0341 on Hondas can be caused by low oil pressure, which can be caused by low oil level (but usually only by a quite low oil level, like more than 1 quart low/lower than the low mark on the dipstick). There is a variable valve timing mechanism that is actuated via oil pressure and, if the ECU commands the timing to change and doesn't see the change reflected in the sensor, will set this code.

Adding oil was a good corrective action.
Monitoring the oil level somewhat more frequently in a car known to use/leak it is probably indicated.
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2023, 08:09:47 pm »
So after charging up the battery last night and starting the car, this morning I woke up to a dead battery. I charged it up again just enough to start the car and then noticed the light at the back (for the hatchback trunk on a CR-V) was set to permanently “on”!!!  |O So that’s probably what drained the battery overnight. I don’t know how long it has been that way. Anyways I managed to drive to work and brought all my charging gear. I didn’t disconnect the battery so we will see if there is still a drain somewhere or if I found the culprit.

I expect an LED bulb replacement would make the battery survive more than just overnight. 

I've always found those switches to be other than intuitive.  They typically are three position switches and there's no inherent logic to which position is which.  Add in that many dome lights now have a delayed off and you can't even test the switch to see which position is which... not easily anyway.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 04:11:42 am by gnuarm »
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2023, 12:47:58 am »
I have a feeling the trunk hatchback light was on for more than 1 night. As I mentioned before the sluggish cranking started at least a week ago and likely preceded the engine MIL code as it was doing it then too (which is why I thought maybe that triggered a false code). In any case, when I charged up the battery last night it was just enough to start the engine. The charger indicated “75%” charge but I don’t think it is a linear scale. Charger only has 5 lights. The first light is “connected”, as soon as it detects a battery it will then show the “25%” light and it has “50%”, “75%” and a final green “complete” light. So I bet it was a partial charge hence why it didn’t make it through the night even with that single light on.

I was able to crank the engine and start it last night and then immediately turned off the car. It was then sitting again all night with that hatchback light on. Yes it’s a 3 position switch (always off, related to door opening/closing, and always on). When in the middle, it will turn on when you unlock or lock doors and usually will dim off when you start engine and drive or when you lock car after a minute will dim off. However it’s hard to notice it, especially if you lock car with remote and walk away.

Anyways this morning since I couldn’t start the car I charged up my battery again for about 45 minutes. First 20 minutes brought it up to “50%”. Tried to crank car, didn’t start and battery fissled out. Then I charged battery more for another 25-30 minutes and it still only made it to “50%”… however it started the car this time. All that time I still didn’t notice the hatchback light on until finally after the car started!  |O Drove to work (30 min away), parked whole day and started car no problem for the drive home. So I suspect that light was the culprit, and because the battery was only partially charged all this time it was enough to deplete it enough not to allow it to turn over the engine. Just to be sure I’m going to charge up the battery in my car for an extended period of time when I’m home and see if it ever gets to “complete”. I’ll keep an eye on things but I believe the battery still has life left in it, once I get it up to normal full charge.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 12:52:02 am by edy »
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Murphy’s Law with my OBD2 reader
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2023, 04:15:00 am »
If a 45 minute charge didn't let the car start, I'm thinking the battery is near done.  I've always been told a battery needs a 24 hour charge to really be "topped off properly", so charge it a couple of nights.  I don't know how far your work is, but driving is not a great way to charge the battery. 

I hope this fixes your problem.
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