Musk, the World's First Trillionaire - Is He Worth It?

[Psi]

SpaceX has done a great job getting reliability and economics on satellite services. No argument there.
I just don't think that all the credit (and money) should flow to Musk.

Most pro-Musk people do not credit Musk for doing all the engineering work, or being solely responsible for all the success at all his companies. They credit Musk for finally creating companies where smart people are allowed to do awesome work rather than having their spirt for design crushed by upper management.
I think there's a lot of miss understanding as to why pro-Musk people are pro-Musk.  People hear pro-Musk supporters saying "Musk is so smart" and assume they are assigning all success to him when they are not.

[jnk0le]

In order to get rich, you have to maintain good connections.

[Psi]

It was a party island, a huge number of people have been there over the 100's of parties.
If extreme illegal/cruel stuff was openly happening at every party Epstein would have been arrested really damn fast. 
The email isn't proof of anything other than that Elon was thinking/planning to go to one of the parties on the island.

[tom66]

It was a party island, a huge number of people have been there over the 100's of parties.
If extreme illegal/cruel stuff was openly happening at every party Epstein would have been arrested really damn fast. 
The email isn't proof of anything other than that Elon was thinking/planning to go to one of the parties on the island.

Epstein had already been publicly convicted of child sex trafficking offenses by the time this email was sent.
If nothing else, it shows a very poor level of judgement on Musk's part, to associate with a known sex offender, a child rapist.

[Psi]

It was a party island, a huge number of people have been there over the 100's of parties.
If extreme illegal/cruel stuff was openly happening at every party Epstein would have been arrested really damn fast. 
The email isn't proof of anything other than that Elon was thinking/planning to go to one of the parties on the island.

Epstein had already been publicly convicted of child sex trafficking offenses by the time this email was sent.
If nothing else, it shows a very poor level of judgement on Musk's part, to associate with a known sex offender, a child rapist.

Yes, if Musk new about the conviction when sending that email then that is fair.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It was a party island, a huge number of people have been there over the 100's of parties.
If extreme illegal/cruel stuff was openly happening at every party Epstein would have been arrested really damn fast. 
The email isn't proof of anything other than that Elon was thinking/planning to go to one of the parties on the island.

Epstein had already been publicly convicted of child sex trafficking offenses by the time this email was sent.
If nothing else, it shows a very poor level of judgement on Musk's part, to associate with a known sex offender, a child rapist.

ISTR Musk has publicly stated he never actually went there.

[Randy222]

At least he doesn't spend his money on mega yachts, 25 mansions and 5 day weddings in Venice or other stuff that doesn't advance anything.

I dont like Elon all that much.

People with lots of money, are mostly greedy self absorbed types.

Think of it this way, Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

But he (and others) dont.

[wilfred]

When's the last time all those other rich poofs have done anything like that ?

In Australia "poof" would be taken to mean homosexual or at least a very effeminate man. I did not know Musk was one. I wouldn't have cared before and I still don't. But I had no idea. If you use the term for the same meaning that is. I can't say I've ever heard someone in America use it that way.  Or at all.

I do remember from either this forum or an Amphour podcast that you did work for Musk.

Did you ever get to meet him?

I think the money has gone to his head and whilst I admired him once I think he is batshit crazy now. How much money he has isn't the point. But I don't like living in a world where money buys political influence on the scale Musk can and has done. Seeing the US president selling cars on the white house grounds as if it was a dealership forecourt is one of the more bizarre things I think I've seen. Who can forget "Everythings computer"

[Tation]

At least he doesn't spend his money on mega yachts, 25 mansions and 5 day weddings in Venice or other stuff that doesn't advance anything.

I dont like Elon all that much.

People with lots of money, are mostly greedy self absorbed types.

Think of it this way, Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

But he (and others) dont.

Being his engineering achievements remarkable, I ask myself if, all that a trillionaire can give to humanity, is a faster internet in remote areas, Teslas and that madness about Mars.

And, if such achievements come hand by hand with the promotion of fascism on his own country and also on other countries, then I think that the overall balance is negative.

Neither, say, Marconi, nor Pasteur, nor Aristotle needed a trillion to get much greater achievements. I doubt future history books will remember him as anything more than an anecdote.

[Zondar]

I was highly annoyed and slightly alarmed that Musk somehow got most of the indexes to buy into the IPO immediately.

Up to this point, the indexes generally enforced a waiting period between an IPO and the company's inclusion in the index, typically 3 months to a year, plus often other requirements such as - what do you know - actually showing a profit (which SpaceX has not, so far). This was so that the hype phase and other animal spirits that distort the stock price can hopefully blow over before pushing a stock into investors portfolios.

Now, as commented, we are all on the hype train, like it or not. That is, other than the S&P-500, which stuck to their principles.

All that said, SpaceX's percentage in the Total Stock Market, etc., is still relatively small (for an absurdly-valued company, that is). Instead of worrying about SpaceX alone, one might worry if AI as a whole is in a bubble.

(Also, f' Musk and his trillion!)

[NE666]

I doubt future history books will remember him as anything more than an anecdote.

Only time will tell of course and many of us won't be here to see it. But my guess is that, as at least one person has already said, he'll be remembered as the Thomas Edison of this age.

That is to say, a successful entrepreneur who built up companies which enjoyed good success for a while and which accumulated significant brand capital and stock value, created value for shareholders, and employment for others.

But in all other respects a 24-carat arsehole. A thoroughly unpleasant, shamelessly self-promoting narcissist without any real interest in the betterment of society if it couldn't be exploited to elevate his own status in the process.

Not to mention, "the boy who cried Mars".

[Smokey]

I doubt future history books will remember him as anything more than an anecdote.

Only time will tell of course and many of us won't be here to see it. But my guess is that, as at least one person has already said, he'll be remembered as the Thomas Edison of this age.
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Edison

Edison's name is registered on 1,093 patents. As the leader of his laboratory, Edison was credited for inventions made in large part by those working under him.

John Ott also worked for Edison. He made many of the mechanical improvements Edison suggested and conducted experiments in Edison's lab. Both men [+Upton] agreed to give Edison credit for most of the patents...

[Bud]

Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

Did Steve Jobs build any hospitals ?

[Psi]

Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

He could. Yes.
And it would help a lot of children, that's true. But he's thinking bigger than that.
His projects are setup to help humanity as a whole and keep doing that into the future even after his death.

Giving massive help to people directly comes with problems. In general society hates huge changes that affect them. The companies/entities affected tend to fight against it and try to keep the status quo.  If he built lots of free hospitals big pharma would come after him with pitchforks and he might end up dead.

You could spend your time/money using your hands to build new houses for homeless people, or you could spend your time/money addressing the root cause of homeless people to try and make the next few generations hopefully the last. Both are nobel causes, one helps people now which is really good, but it only helps a small number compared with the other which helps an almost infinite amount of people in the future.  There is no right answer to which of those approaches is correct. You make your own call, they both have advantages and disadvantages.  There's never one perfect solution to any problem, there is always many solutions all with their own problems. You pick the one you feel is probably the best option. That's all you can ever do, or be expected to do. He's decided that focusing on the future and long term help is the better option rather than trying to help people right now.
 
- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.
- The transition to robotics/AI will drastically lower the cost of all food and goods because extracting resources and turning them into food/goods wont need expensive human labour, only energy, and it can run 24/7 using batteries + solar or fusion eventually.
- Developing the neurallink technology will drastically improve the quality of life to basically everyone with those sort of injuries or birth defects, children included.
- SpaceX will create a booming new space industry. By making sure humans are well established on multiple planets or in space in the long term, not just on earth, it will ensure no huge asteroid can wipe out all of humanity. A huge asteroid is heading towards earth right now we just don't know if it's in 5 years or 5 million.

[tom66]

Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

Did Steve Jobs build any hospitals ?

Related: Apple actually run a number of private hospitals/clinics exclusively for their employees. Though the practice started after Jobs death/resignation.  So I guess they look after their own. 

[free_electron]

In Australia "poof" would be taken to mean homosexual or at least a very effeminate man. I did not know Musk was one. I wouldn't have cared before and I still don't. But I had no idea. If you use the term for the same meaning that is. I can't say I've ever heard someone in America use it that way.  Or at all.

posers. show-offs. "look at me" people. i have money, bow for me.  that kind of meaning.

All these billionaires hang out in St Tropez or Dubai on their megayachts trying to outshine the next rich guy. But what do they actually do to improve humanity ? I don't mind them having money but at least use it for something that has purpose. Just selling fancy purses and bubbly drinks doesn't bring anything useful for humanity.

Money is a tool for Musk. it enables him to pursue bigger things : getting us off fossil fuel by electrifying everything. Getting rid of menial labor so we are free to pursue our interests. Reaching for the stars. Enabling disabled people to see or walk again. fixing traffic jams by going underground.

Are some of it pipe dreams ? maybe. But if you don't even try you are bound to fail. He's willing to use his wealth to try stuff. And he can attract the right people.
Beats sitting on a hyper yacht and owning 23 Bugatti Veyron's in my mind.

Yeah, i've met him several times. He's a no nonsense straight to the point guy. So is the rest of the management. Bring an idea to the table that could bring returns and you will be allowed to pursue.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Think of it this way, Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

Anyone with lots of money could do that, if they also had the time to make sure it was done properly, not falling victim to corruption, incompetence, kiddy-fiddling staff etc. etc.
It takes a lot more than just having money to do Tesla, SpaceX etc., which could  easily have far more overall benefit to the world as a whole

[nctnico]

- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.

History will soon tell actually the opposite is true. We should have moved to hydrogen sourced from solar and underground reserves (there is more than enough) already. Right now electric cars use electricity which could be more useful elsewhere and coal & gas power plants need to be kept running longer (=toxic pollution) than they should have. Only Musk got really rich from electric cars through hype... But it is history repeating. Back in the 80's we should have invested way more in sustainable nuclear power.

[Psi]

Think of it this way, Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

Anyone with lots of money could do that, if they also had the time to make sure it was done properly, not falling victim to corruption, incompetence, kiddy-fiddling staff etc. etc.

Not to mention how hard big pharma would come at you if you took away their profits by providing free healthcare.
Working on figure stuff is much safer than trying to work on current things and messing with peoples lives.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Elon could build 20 St Jude Children's Research Hospitals in 20 countries around the world and charge $0 for services, and, still be a trillionaire.

He could. Yes.
And it would help a lot of children, that's true. But he's thinking bigger than that.
His projects are setup to help humanity as a whole and keep doing that into the future even after his death.

Giving massive help to people directly comes with problems. In general society hates huge changes that affect them. The companies/entities affected tend to fight against it and try to keep the status quo.  If he built lots of free hospitals big pharma would come after him with pitchforks and he might end up dead.

You could spend your time/money using your hands to build new houses for homeless people, or you could spend your time/money addressing the root cause of homeless people to try and make the next few generations hopefully the last. Both are nobel causes, one helps people now which is really good, but it only helps a small number compared with the other which helps an almost infinite amount of people in the future.  There is no right answer to which of those approaches is correct. You make your own call, they both have advantages and disadvantages.  There's never one perfect solution to any problem, there is always many solutions all with their own problems. You pick the one you feel is probably the best option. That's all you can ever do, or be expected to do. He's decided that focusing on the future and long term help is the better option rather than trying to help people right now.
 
- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.
- The transition to robotics/AI will drastically lower the cost of all food and goods because extracting resources and turning them into food/goods wont need expensive human labour, only energy, and it can run 24/7 using batteries + solar or fusion eventually.
- Developing the neurallink technology will drastically improve the quality of life to basically everyone with those sort of injuries or birth defects, children included.
- SpaceX will create a booming new space industry. By making sure humans are well established on multiple planets or in space in the long term, not just on earth, it will ensure no huge asteroid can wipe out all of humanity. A huge asteroid is heading towards earth right now we just don't know if it's in 5 years or 5 million.

Yet there are still many people who think all that is less important than being a nice guy or not saying things that might upset someone. 

[Psi]

- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.

History will soon tell actually the opposite is true. We should have moved to hydrogen sourced from solar and underground reserves (there is more than enough) already. Right now electric cars use electricity which could be more useful elsewhere and coal & gas power plants need to be kept running longer (=toxic pollution) than they should have. Only Musk got really rich from electric cars through hype... But it is history repeating. Back in the 80's we should have invested way more in sustainable nuclear power.

The move to EV is not a move to batteries it's a move to cars that use electric motors and all the complexity that involves.
Once you have EVs you can drop in any new energy source you want if it makes sense to do so.
If some new hydrogen storage system or fuel cell appears that makes more sense to use, or some new green battery tech appears, we can now change to that easily.

Musk got really rich from electric cars through hype...

If he made lots of money and then spent it on Starship RnD did he really get rich?

[mikeselectricstuff]

- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.

History will soon tell actually the opposite is true. We should have moved to hydrogen sourced from solar and underground reserves (there is more than enough) already.

Why would you use a power source that is maybe 30% efficient, really inconvenient to use, and needs substantial energy to store & move it around? Even 100% green hydrogen would be far less practical for transport than battery storage.

[nctnico]

- Kicking off the EV revolution sooner rather than later will already have saved a huge amount of people in the future.

History will soon tell actually the opposite is true. We should have moved to hydrogen sourced from solar and underground reserves (there is more than enough) already.

Why would you use a power source that is maybe 30% efficient, really inconvenient to use, and needs substantial energy to store & move it around? Even 100% green hydrogen would be far less practical for transport than battery storage.

Do the math on that where it comes to resource usage and economics where it comes to storing energy in batteries. Recently I did an ROI analysis on a simple home storage battery system. The ROI goes down exponentially with increasing capacity and reduced number of full cycles. And if you hit the point where the battery only needs to do a few cycles per year, the amount of energy needed to make the battery exceeds the energy it will ever store. Batteries become uneconomic for energy storage surprisingly quickly! But don't take my word for it. Read up on the seasonal energy storage strategy of the UK government (which is just one example). You'll see they have choosen hydrogen and are building the infrastructure for it. First the heavy industry, then heavy transport and then cars.

Also keep in mind that the good old coal gas which was used for cooking before natural gas consists of 50% hydrogen. Storing that in gas holders and piping it to homes wasn't a problem for nearly 100 years. The toxicity of the carbon monoxide was the main problem with it. There is nothing new about using hydrogen. It is in use on a large scale for centuries already; people just aren't aware.

[Psi]

if you hit the point where the battery only needs to do a few cycles per year, the amount of energy needed to make the battery exceeds the energy it will ever store.

Why on earth would you want a home storage battery bank so huge it only cycles a few times a year?
You get 3000-8000 cycles on a home storage battery before it drops to 70% of original capacity.
Around 10-20 years of lifespan with a daily charge/discharge cycle before you're at that 70%, which is still quite usable after that.
Capacity cycling over a week I could understand but not a few times a year.
Do you live in Antarctica where you have 6 months of darkness?

[Simmed]

In order to get rich, you have to maintain good connections.
(Attachment Link)

this 1 is interesting
what i understood is that elon did not go
but his brother did
on contrary, bill gates went to the island many times